My Stud Mistakes

[Al Mirpuri]

1. I represent a pair of Aces on third street too often, though not all the time.

2. I play nearly all pairs for the price of the bring-in regardless of how dead my hand is.

3. I play nearly all three straights for the price of the bring-in regardless of how dead my hand is.

4. I, on occasion, can be bullied off a huge pot. This mistake hurts like hell, when I see some clown take down a pot with a hand smaller than what I had.

I play in a micro-limits stud game where as you can imagine it is rather loose passive.

Mistakes 1 and 4 I can rectify but does anyone have any thoughts about mistakes 2 and 3?

[Iceman]

Mistake 1 will get you creamed. Don't go overboard "representing" things against players who aren't aware enough to give you credit for a specific hand or to alter their play as a result. In loose-passive games where you can't narrow the field much or steal pots, just play a lot of drawing hands cheaply and charge them the max when you hit. Mistakes 2 and 3 are easy to fix - just watch the upcards and be disciplined. Liveness matters a lot, _especially_ in loose-passive games where you have to improve to win. As for mistake 4, there are times when you just have to chase, swallow, and pay the bets - there are so many scare cards and tricky players in stud that in large pots it's often correct to call them down even when you're pretty sure you're beaten.

[MBTIGUY]

Al,
It's always refreshing to see someone willing to admit their mistakes. Your post makes me think about my own commitment to be a better player. I offer my comments in the spirit of one trying to get it right myself.

I play the microlimits, too, and I'm agreeing with Iceman on all points. With games that will almost always require a showdown to win, you must have the goods. Bluffing (.e. over-representing your hand) is not a good strategy in loose-passive microlimit games. However, a well-placed semi-bluff on a come hand (flushes seem to get the most respect) or a paired door can work on 5th or 6th street.

You CANNOT overestimate the importance of live cards (#'s 2 &3 . If you're playing dead hands as a bluff, you're really dead because you have undermined your chances of getting to showdown with the best hand.

Also, I don't play many low straights. Maybe limping in late position with a two flush against passive players (MAYBE). Since you're much more likely to get two pair than a straight, I always ask muself, "Can I miss my draw and still win?" Therefore, I like high, live straight draws (e.g. 9-10-J).

For myself, I wonder if I give up on what is going to be a big pot too soon (fold on 4th or 5th). Once it gets late and it's a big pot, I tend to play all the way. But what has happened prior is that:
1) I started with a good, live hand
2) by 5th street I believed I had the best hand or the best draw, which also includes how many people my hand will play well against
Again, it's much better in passive games to selectively semi-bluff on 5th or especially 6th than to over-represent on 3rd. In these games, people start with nothing and stay with nothing too long. If you have a scary board by 5th or 6th, people may mistakenly fold if they finally realize their junk can't catch a straight or a flush.

[Andy B]

1. Why try to deceive players who aren't paying attention anyway?

2. If you have a small pair, and one of your pair cards is out, your hand is unplayable except as a steal or perhaps heads-up against someone who is playing random cards.

3. Straight draws suck. Most players lose money on them, and I don't make much, if anything. If you're going to throw your money after them, at least make sure your cards are live.

4. Don't look for reasons to save one last bet in a big pot. That's not where the money is in this game.

You've identified several leaks, and you've admitted to them publicly. Good job. Now go plug 'em.

[MRBAA]

Roy West's "2-point rule" is good for str8 draws. Count cards next to your straight cards as 1 point, cards one away as .5 points. don't play if 2 or more points are out. For example:
you hold 910J and you see a Q (1 pt) and two 7s (.5 each). Fold.

Same hand, you see just one 7 (.5) you like it. If your jack is higher than any other upcard and no one raises, you like it even more.

For small pairs, understand that the only real value is making trips on fourth or hitting an ace or king kicker. So if they are dead, you lose your best potential to win a giant pot in a loose game where many stay in and you make trips/full house. Two small pair is a death hand, and even two big pair ain't great in a loose low limit game where you've got lots of folks drawing and your fullhouse outs are dead.

[MBTIGUY]

MRBAA,
I wanted to add West's 2-point rule but figured I 'd written enough. I always enjoy your posts but this one got me thinking about a question I've had.

A couple of times I've seen you mention playing small pairs. I play them pretty tight per the structure of the games I currently favor and per West/Othmer: preferably concealed; high kickers (plural - but 7CSFAP seems to indicate one overcard is enough); and not against raised bets.

[ QUOTE ]
For small pairs, understand that the only real value is making trips on fourth or hitting an ace or king kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

So now I have the following questions to you and the others(and please add answers to questions I didn't ask):
1) do you play small pairs against a completed bet?
2) do you only need one high kicker by 4th street to play on, i.e suppose 5th brings a low, unpaired card?
3) do you play against a raise on 4th if you get your high kicker?

[MRBAA]

1) do you play small pairs against a completed bet?

It depends. If I'm last to act, a strong player with a big card in the door has completed and everyone else has folded the I'll fold. On the other hand, if a loose aggressive player completes and gets two callers then I'll call.

2) do you only need one high kicker by 4th street to play on, i.e suppose 5th brings a low, unpaired card?

I play my small pairs in stud about like I do in hold em -- no set, no bet. So if I don't trip up or hit two live pair on fourth, I'm out. Even if I started with an ace kicker, I'll still fold. In most low limit games, you're getting plenty of implied odds to limp your little pair in hopes of hitting. But once you miss on fourth you generally either have many players to beat, meaning reverse implied odds even if you make two pair or you are short handed in which case you probably aren't getting enough odds to continue. Your real value in playing these hands (and the three straights) is that when you hit you'll get paid off -- you're taking advantage of the calling stations who dominate these games by limping alot. You can afford to limp/fold like this because (a) they aren't too aggressive so you often can get in cheap (b) they'll pay you generously when you hit.

3) do you play against a raise on 4th if you get your high kicker?

Again, it depends. When a solid opponent pairs his door and I think it means trips, I'm gone. Otherwise, I'll probably reraise my two pair/with overpair and try to get head up right there. And, of course, this is also a situation where having your cards live is important as you have a redraw even if your opponent hits his hand.

[patrick dicaprio]

if your hand is not dead i dont think 2 is a mistake at low limit as long as you can fold two small pair on fourth if needed. but do you really do it no matter how dead your hand is? same thought on 3 but only if your hand is not totally dead. Use roy wests rule of 2 and you wont be too far off.

Pat

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
1. I represent a pair of Aces on third street too often, though not all the time.

2. I play nearly all pairs for the price of the bring-in regardless of how dead my hand is.

3. I play nearly all three straights for the price of the bring-in regardless of how dead my hand is.

4. I, on occasion, can be bullied off a huge pot. This mistake hurts like hell, when I see some clown take down a pot with a hand smaller than what I had.

I play in a micro-limits stud game where as you can imagine it is rather loose passive.

Mistakes 1 and 4 I can rectify but does anyone have any thoughts about mistakes 2 and 3?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Very few players are so observant at microlimits to make 'representing' worthwhile.

2. Even without having my outs dead the 'horse race paradox' DS has written about means that I have to be more disciplined in ditching low pairs that have their kickers or pairing cards out.

3. I've decided not to bother playing straights unless they are two suited. I was unaware of West's 2 point rule. It is a little looser than what 7CSFAP recommends but it is something to keep in mind.

4. After some joker went four bets against me on sixth and seventh trying to bully me off trip Twos (they were split and my door card paired on fourth) I have realised that I have to be grit my teeth and hold on to my hat and call the suckers down.

[msk]

1. I represent a pair of Aces on third street too often, though not all the time.

It depends on what you have when you represent the Aces (and raise), and who and what are behind you. Here is something you can do: Represent Aces only late, and only when you have a pair in the hole, and perhaps only when the pair is either 99 or higher; or any pair as long as you have a 2 flush. (I generally raise with an Ace showing and a live 3 flush, so I think that's good).

2. I play nearly all pairs for the price of the bring-in regardless of how dead my hand is.

duh. Don't play pairs lower than 88 at all unless you are late, no raises, and you have a 2 flush. I would throw away pairs of TT or lower if one of them were showing. Sometimes JJ.

3. I play nearly all three straights for the price of the bring-in regardless of how dead my hand is.

Don't play 3 str8s lower than about 89T at all unless you also have a 2 flush and your cards are completely alive.


4. I, on occasion, can be bullied off a huge pot. This mistake hurts like hell, when I see some clown take down a pot with a hand smaller than what I had.

This is probably the worst mistake. If the pot is large enough, and it is one bet, and sometimes two, you must call. Many pots with AAxx (2 pr) and KKxx (2 pr)
against 2-3 players must be worth a call, since they are so large. I won a gigantic 5-10 pot online this week with KK88 when a guy with a low str8 folded to my raise of the bettor with QQxx; he went ballistic at himself when he saw my hand. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I rate these mistakes, from worst to least bad: 4, 2, 3, 1.
But 2 is pretty bad too. For whatever it's worth: I know what to do in both HE preflop and Stud on 3rd str. I cannot fold hands preflop often enough in HE, I just cannot. I do not play HE any longer. I can do the right thing in stud. I play a lot. (3-4 tables at once). I am not sure why I can at one game and not at the other. If you cannot follow the simple rules of when to fold and when to call and when to bet --- like those in the 2+2 stud book -- you should find another hobyy or game.


Mark