continually running on empty

[tigerite]

Well increasing his stack size changes all the equities, seeing as ICM bases it not only on your own stack, but all the others too.

alright.. but in general, say you switched his stack with the biggest one, should i be more or less liberal in pushing when it's folded to me?

[tigerite]

It would depend, but I don't think a big stack would call as much as you think, considering you have t1100 and are pushing at 100/200 blinds.. I believe a big stack that isn't a total donk would have a much tighter range than the BB in this hand, and thus a push would, generally, be more correct, not less.

Please note though, that it is only for this hand. There is also the factor that if he calls and you lose, your EV is 0, not 0.10. That's a big, big difference.

I've just checked, in fact, and his range has to be tighter than 27% to push 52s here if "bloomers43" was in the BB and rarebel on the button, having folded to you. That's a pretty big range though, 22+,A2+,K9o+,K6s+,QTs,JTs. Against most opponents, therefore, it is still a push. I expected it to be about that, actually.

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]

alternatively, if anyone has some full hand histories of their own (where they didn't get lots of good hands of course) that they could show me, i'd appreciate it. i'm hoping this will help me see the errors i'm making.

[/ QUOTE ]

send me email, kevin.heinrichsohn@gmail.com, and ill send you a dozen or so full tourney HHs, i have some 10+1s even. you should be able to scan each in about 5 minutes in the replayer. Decide what plays looks "wierd" to you, and go from there.

[bennies]

I agree with tigerite about most things and I don't think he is entirely wrong here. However, I prefer not to push the 65 and I don't push 52s either. According to my calculation Villain needs to fold more than 25% of the time for the push to be +EV and I don't think he does. (If villain had had a bigger stack, obviously I like the push).

[tigerite]

Well, ok, the 52s one is close, on that we can agree. It might even be very marginally -$EV "if" he calls with absolutely everything. But the key is, I think here is a situation where ICM both undervalues your equity when you win, and also overvalues your equity should you fold.

Look at the situation should you win

Seat 4: GobBluth72 ( $1345 )
Seat 8: lostin111 ( $1700 )
Seat 9: bloomers43 ( $3390 )
Seat 10: heret1k ( $1565 )

That should mean easy steals from GobBluth as you both have him covered and he's to your right.

The 65o one, I did say was "tempting".. not a definite push or something.. but those ranges are pretty damn wide, 12 and 17%.

[bennies]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, ok, the 52s one is close, on that we can agree. It might even be very marginally -$EV "if" he calls with absolutely everything. But the key is, I think here is a situation where ICM both undervalues your equity when you win, and also overvalues your equity should you fold.

Look at the situation should you win

Seat 4: GobBluth72 ( $1345 )
Seat 8: lostin111 ( $1700 )
Seat 9: bloomers43 ( $3390 )
Seat 10: heret1k ( $1565 )

That should mean easy steals from GobBluth as you both have him covered and he's to your right.



[/ QUOTE ]

Nh. Damn, I wish I had the time to think these things through when I am 8-tabling. I agree such ajustments of ICM could help our pushbot-game. This spot is a pretty good illustration of this because, if we win, the dude with the widest calling range (bigstack) is on our right.
However, one argument can be made for folding, showing down 52 won't help our image much [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

Having looked at the 65 again.... hmm, 12/17 calling ranges look about right to me actually [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[tigerite]

I of course meant GobBluth is to the left, i.e. we are on his right. Oops. You're right though - it's close either way, a fold isn't the worst there. For K9s though the next hand it's a travesty.

[bennies]

[ QUOTE ]
For K9s though the next hand it's a travesty.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep.

(Travesty: absurd imitation of or inferior substitute for sth: The trial was a travesty of justice)

OP was imitating bad cards when he folded or something...

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i was down to 465 after losing that first hand and then got blinded down to 3BB.

[/ QUOTE ]How about posting the hands inbetween these two spots?