AA again.

Bongo · #1 03-30-2005, 03:57 AM

I usually bet, bet, bet with aces but in this hand I had two opponents + a bad feeling.

Is this river call a fish call? How, should I have played the turn? The pot was pretty big and I wasn't confident at all. Can I fold on the turn here?. Was my flop bet to weak?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($189.7)
MP1 ($195.45)
MP2 ($238.08)
MP3 ($247.42)
CO ($226.3)
Button ($447.75)
Hero ($212.1)
BB ($121)
UTG ($187)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls $2, 2 folds, Button calls $2, Hero raises to $12, 1 fold, MP2 calls $10, Button calls $10.

Flop: ($38) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $25, MP2 calls $25, Button calls $25.

Turn: ($113) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $30, MP2 calls $30, Button calls $30.

River: ($203) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, Button bets $50, Hero calls $50, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: $303

Results in white below: 
Button has Th Kd (full house, tens full of kings).
Hero has Ac As (two pair, aces and tens).
Outcome: Button wins $303.

BobboFitos · #2 03-30-2005, 04:07 AM

Wow, your turn bet is awful. If you're going to bet, bet, but dont go 30.

That flop is HIGHLY coordinated, so with two opponents I'd go like 30+

getting called in two spots would slow me down on the turn.

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How, should I have played the turn? The pot was pretty big and I wasn't confident at all.

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Bet more or not at all.

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Is this river call a fish call?

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No, you win 20% of the time.But after being called on the flop by 2 people and having top pair pair... bleh [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Bad sign.

To be honest, on the turn I would think (not like I fear monsters) but QJ is a very legit limping hand + calling the raise, then just calling the bet. And you're dead against that.

They could also have pair + gut, 2 pair, set, straight, etc. Thats a very coordinated board.

Also, this is non related, I'm watching kill bill. and it's SUCH a bad movie. yet it's appealing. Why?

PoBoy321 · #3 03-30-2005, 04:09 AM

Personally, I would've liked a bigger flop bet. $35 sounds right. I think that QQ, KK and possibly JJ would call you down there.

Also, I would probably raise more pre-flop to try to make up for my positional disadvantage.

I also think that you have to call the river.

joewatch · #4 03-30-2005, 04:24 AM

Preflop - fine
Flop - I think any bet 1/2-1X pot is fine since there is no flush draw. Once you are called here, I would check the turn. I would not have put villain on KT, but a flopped set would be strongly on my mind since PP is what people usually limp-call with preflop. Don't be afraid to fold your overpair to strong betting.

PoBoy321 · #5 03-30-2005, 04:29 AM

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Don't be afraid to fold your overpair to strong betting.

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What betting? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Hero was the only aggressor in this hand until the river, but I don't feel that he was aggressive enough on the flop or turn.

zaxx19 · #6 03-30-2005, 04:32 AM

Im all for letting opponents make bad calls but I pot this flop ....almost everytime.

There are way too many scare cards that could come on the turn. I wanna to find out right there who wants to play.

Bongo · #7 03-30-2005, 04:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, your turn bet is awful. If you're going to bet, bet, but dont go 30.

That flop is HIGHLY coordinated, so with two opponents I'd go like 30+

getting called in two spots would slow me down on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
How, should I have played the turn? The pot was pretty big and I wasn't confident at all.

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Bet more or not at all.

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I agree, the turn play is bad. I like to bet something close to the size of the pot, but that will commit me here. Perhaps I was fearing monsters under the bed, but the only hands I can beat are the 1pair+gutshot hands and I have 2 opponents. If I don't bet, but someone else does, what do I do then?

You're right about Kill Bill. It is appealing trash in some way. I hope someone can give the answer.

BobboFitos · #8 03-30-2005, 04:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow, your turn bet is awful. If you're going to bet, bet, but dont go 30.

That flop is HIGHLY coordinated, so with two opponents I'd go like 30+

getting called in two spots would slow me down on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
How, should I have played the turn? The pot was pretty big and I wasn't confident at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet more or not at all.

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I agree, the turn play is bad. I like to bet something close to the size of the pot, but that will commit me here. Perhaps I was fearing monsters under the bed, but the only hands I can beat are the 1pair+gutshot hands and I have 2 opponents. If I don't bet, but someone else does, what do I do then?

You're right about Kill Bill. It is appealing trash in some way. I hope someone can give the answer.

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About kill bill: I dont know if it is trash, but definately not tarantino's finest work.

About the turn:

6 9 t k is the board. Hmm.

It's tough to limit a hand range for unknowns without ANY semblance of tightness/looseness, but we'll start with pocketpairs.

Limping/calling raise seems reasonable from 22-JJ. 5s and under fold the flop bet. Can't really say whether a villain would raise a set, but we can just speculate about what he can have on the turn. So 66, 99, and tt are reasonable. Wha about jj? Seems reasonable. you're beating that. 88 and 77, too, pair + gut.

So 3 sets, 1 overpair, 2 pair + gutdraws, all reasonable.

next group. people love broadway cards. not all people raise AK/AQ, but given you have 2 aces and people generaly raise em, tough to put them on those hands. So i guess AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JT are another set of hands villains could have. I cant see AJ calling a bet, so we rule that out on turn. AT / KT / QT / JT has top pair, so they could be out there. KJ and KQ have overs + nut gut draw, *unlikely hands* but possible. QJ has oesd.

So by the turn you're still in the lead vs AT, QT, JT. KQ, KJ have more of a reason to play. You're behind KT, QJ. This set of hands really says to bet, because most hands have quite a few outs vs you, and you're only hurting against two hands. ok

Another set of hands are suited aces. (Or, offsuit weak aces, bad players love those hands) Maybe somrething like A9 or A6 call a bet on flop, and you have these crushed to 2 outs. No need to really protect vs this hand. A8 and A7 both have gut + "over" but this is unlikely to have called flop bet.

Then we have offsuit + suited connectors/gappers. T9, T8, 98, 97, 87, 86, 76. These hands could be in there on flop, but the turn doesn't really improve them at all. Here you're still behind T9, 78 (dead). The rest are all pair + gutdraw. (I think) So really this warrants a bet.

By the time you're on the turn there are a few hands which have you dead to 2 outs (sets) a few which have you dead period (the straights) a few which have you dead to boar pairing + set outs (the two pair hands) and then pretty much every other hand possible has 6 to 10+ outs vs you. Really, on one hand your hand is VERY vulnerable, on the other hand, as you say, if you bet to protect it you're PCing yourself when you're potentially dead. Since you're OOP this is a VERY tough position.

If I was heads up I would bet this turn,(although the pot size would be smaller, making it a non commital bet) only because it's more likely you're still ahead, but with two I'm checking and evaluting. Betting to "find where yo uare" is too committing, and at this point you'd rather just showdown. That might not be an option.

All in all you shoul dcheck this turn. I really odnt know the correct thing to do in the face of a bet-fold, or check- bet, etc. Depends how much they bet, too.

Bongo · #9 03-30-2005, 04:48 AM

I think we all agree that I wasn't aggressive enough in this hand. But what if I would have bet the pot instead of $25 on the flop (I think this would have been better). KT would still have stayed (it's my guess anyway). The other player who I think had a draw might have folded but who knows. Anyway, I would still have been in big trouble on the turn. I would still have an overpair, and betting the pot would be a major step towards commitment. Thinking about it maybe a pot bet followed by half a pot bet would have been a good line. Then I could have check-folded the river or folded to a turn raise and I would have won some money if he had had a weak hand or a draw.

BobboFitos · #10 03-30-2005, 04:50 AM

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But what if I would have bet the pot instead of $25 on the flop (I think this would have been better). KT would still have stayed (it's my guess anyway).

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Good! then you won yourself 1:1 on your money when he is 5 outs vs 40 (other cards) from improving. Thats called pos ev!

Of course, if you then bet big on turn when he has YOU drawing to 8 outs, (board pairing below/sets) then his mistaken call turns into a winner (implied odds0 because now he's making more BBs as a big fav.

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Anyway, I would still have been in big trouble on the turn. I would still have an overpair, and betting the pot would be a major step towards commitment. Thinking about it maybe a pot bet followed by half a pot bet would have been a good line. Then I could have check-folded the river or folded to a turn raise and I would have won some money if he had had a weak hand or a draw.

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Thats if it's heads up though, which it's not.