Did I Misplay This Hand

Mansavage · #1 12-13-2004, 05:55 AM

Normal Party 10/20 Sunday night. Villain in this hand is a fairly tight, winning player over the 4000+ hand I have on him.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero 3-bets, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

After the hand, a discussion broke out critcizing my play. I was hoping for some other 2 + 2 input on this one

Michael Emery · #2 12-13-2004, 06:04 AM

Why didnt you raise the turn? I'm assuming the villian (as you classified him as a tight/winning player) would have reraised MP1 with QQ or JJ. I think if it was to be a set it would most likely be 88. Was it QJs you were worried about? I dont know, but regardless I definitely think a turn raise is in order.

Mike Emery

lil feller · #3 12-13-2004, 06:38 AM

What kind of hands would this sort of player cold call a early position PF raise. you told us he was a winning player, and most winning players would never cold-call here, and they certainly wouldn't cold call with QJ. Give us an idea of what he might cold call with, and we can give you a better idea of how the hand should have played out.

Minus that information, and going off your assessment that he is a tight/winning player, I could see him having. The following:

Ak or AQ (although most tight/winning players would 3 bet these)
pp 7-10

JJ and QQ and KK are 3 betting here 100% of the time I would think.

I like the turn call, as the villian probably has either a queen, or A high. I think I would still raise the river, even after the J pairs, as it is very unlikely that the villian has a J in his hand. He might have 88, and if he does good for him, but that is really the only hand you need to worry about.

lf

TStoneMBD · #4 12-13-2004, 06:45 AM

yah i definitely think you should have raised the turn here.

goofball · #5 12-13-2004, 06:45 AM

given your read of villian, is there a single hand you beat if he 3bets this turn?

none come to mind for me. given that, seems like it's a good plan to raise the turn with a plan to fold to a 3bet. you extract the extra bet when ahead and lose the same amount whenbehind.

this is of course highly read dependent. against an unknown PPer i'd call down and with any laggish read i'm raising and calling down if 3bet

lil feller · #6 12-13-2004, 06:53 AM

I don't think a turn raise is a good idea at all, but maybe I'm crazy. I raise the river. Raising the turn gets you 3 bet by 88, called by AQ, and every other hand you can beat folds...why not let him bluff one more time, if thats what he's doing, no tight player is cold calling with a J PF, even AJ is an auto muck for most tight players...I let him bluff again, raise the river, and if I get 3 bet I call and hope he got frisky with AQ or was PF tricky w/ KK. I have a tough time seeing him with a J in this hand.

lf

Mansavage · #7 12-13-2004, 11:33 AM

The trouble that I had with this hand was putting my opponent on a hand. I was figuring maybe A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], but then I figured he would have three bet that preflop. 88 was the other hand I was worried about, but I think he would have three bet that to try and isolate the raiser who was a bad player. QJ entered my mind, but why cold call a raise with that preflop.

My plan when calling the bet on the turn was to raise on the river is a safe card came off. That being said, does the J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] constitute a safe card, because I got a bad feeling from it.

CheckFold · #8 12-13-2004, 03:12 PM

I don't think he could fold to a 3 bet. Although it is unlikely that our hero can be ahead if he is 3-betted after raising, I think QJ is still the most likely holding, and he clearly has odds to draw against that. The tough part is then laying down AA on the river when you don't improve.