AKo - Call a turn raise and fold to river bet

[onegymrat]

RIVER: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB bets, I fold. EP folds. LP raises. SB asks, "You got a straight?!" LP replies, "Yes, of course." SB calls anyway.

SB had 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for flopped two pair.
LP had Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for a rivered gutshot straight and takes the pot.

EP asked me what I have in which I told the truth. He said he has A8o.

[ZenMusician]

Why is it always Q4o?

-ZEN

[BigBrother]

Looks like you played it perfectly and SB cost himself the pot.

[clownshoes]

What the [censored]. I cant believe people are saying this is a good play.

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
Ouch. What a horrible fold.

When you didn't raise PF, you were disguising your hand. Isn't the whole point of disguising your hand to trap others into overplaying theirs?

There is no logical hand that sb is c/ring on the turn. The flop was checked around so most players, even total donks, know enough to bet the turn rather than let it be checked around again, especially with a scare card coming on the turn. So sb could have: A hand you're drawing dead to, 2 pair, Ax, a piece of the flop, total junk.

You are ahead of the two limpers and you're getting 10-1 and maybe as much as 12-1 on the river call. Sure, you're probably losing, but you're not losing anywhere near the 91%-93% of the time it would take to make this a -EV call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. And thank you - I was beginning to feel a bit alone given some of the other replies.

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
Live at the Mecca, 9/18 nine-handed. Table is typical loose with minor bursts of aggression. Two limpers to me in BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]:K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I check. Four to the flop.

FLOP: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked around. Still four players.

TURN: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB (loosey-goosey) checks, I bet, EP limper (tight by Commerce standards) calls, LP limper (loosest player in the free world) calls. SB now check-raises. I call as do the others. Four to the river.

RIVER: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB bets. I fold...

All comments welcomed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hrm.

Interesting hand. I like it. The hand, I mean. After I finish typing, I'll decide if I like how you played it.

Preflop: I occasionally limp with AKo in the BB at the yellow game. Usually, I limp if I'm against four or more opponents and there are at least two other aggressive players. I don't mind sacrificing a bit (or even a LOT) of preflop equity with AKo OOP. Anyhow, 9/18 is a bit of a different beast. If the players are limping in with Q4o in LP, raise this bizznatch preflop. You're sacrificing too much equity and you won't be able to make up these missed bets with your postflop play. They're going to play poorly all the way down. May as well get that extra small bet per player while you can. And don't worry about giving them the odds to chase their gutshots in big pots. Your turn aggression will take care of such problems.

So, I raise this preflop almost every time at 9/18. I raise it about 80% of the time at 20/40. (The 20% isn't "random"; that's about the frequency that I'm against several opponents with a few good/tricky/aggressive postflop bastards.)

Flop: Fine.

Turn: Fold or 3-bet. Calling is yucky. You have no idea where you are if you call. You still have two players behind you who are sure to come along for the ride for one more bet. And I like having the button on the river. If you 3-bet and get called by one of the guys behind you, you're looking at a flush draw. Or perhaps a weakly played two-pair. If you 3-bet and get called by BOTH guys, the river will be interesting. If you 3-bet and get it HU and then get 4-bet, I lay it down right there. You're drawing absolutely totally dead. And if you think you need to call a bet and fold on the river so people don't make a move on you when they 4-bet the turn in the future...you're kidding. No one at 9/18 4-bets this hand with less than a set. It just doesn't happen. Would YOU 4-bet the turn with top two??? I wouldn't. If you 3-bet the turn and get it HU, just check through the river.

I don't like folding the turn. You could be up against a crappy two-pair and have up to eight outs. If he bets into you on the river (given that you 3-bet the turn and the river doesn't pair the board), I call, but I shouldn't. He had two-pair on the turn and was waiting to see if it was going to get counterfeited. Add in the small probability that your hand is good because he's insane, and a call is only slightly -EV. And you'll sleep better at night. And if the river DOES pair the board and he bets into you...oy...but I call. He could be betting a counterfeited hand and be just totally pissed off at life.

River: So...the river is now a bitch. It's 4-handed, you're second to act, and there are four to a straight on board. Given that you didn't 3-bet the turn, this is an easy fold. You almost certainly cannot beat SB (he has at least two-pair the vast majority of the time), and even if you can, there is little reason to believe that you can beat the SB and BOTH of the players behind you. The pot isn't big enough to make a crying call here with two players left to act.

So...raise preflop.

But barring that, 3-bet the turn. More often than not, you'll lose an extra bet. But those rare times that you convince a flush draw to fold on the turn, you'll be happy that you bought those extra outs.

And then cry that you didn't make a better two-pair.

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure, you're probably losing, but you're not losing anywhere near the 91%-93% of the time it would take to make this a -EV call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you are. You don't win this 7% of the time when the SB bets into you AND there are two players left to act AND there are four to a straight on board.

Calling the SB's river bet and folding to a raise is certainly an option, but I prefer folding outright. You're just not going to win this showdown often enough. A call is slightly -EV in the long run. But only slightly. Call only if you think you'll go on tilt if you end up mucking the winner (which will happen LESS than 7% of the time...much less at this game).

[ QUOTE ]
Live at the Mecca, 9/18 nine-handed. Table is typical loose with minor bursts of aggression. Two limpers to me in BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]:K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I check. Four to the flop.

I don't think that I would have folded on the river. You may be up against a set or wheel but I would call the bet with top pair, top licker

FLOP: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked around. Still four players.

TURN: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB (loosey-goosey) checks, I bet, EP limper (tight by Commerce standards) calls, LP limper (loosest player in the free world) calls. SB now check-raises. I call as do the others. Four to the river.

RIVER: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB bets. I fold...

All comments welcomed.

[/ QUOTE ]

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Live at the Mecca, 9/18 nine-handed. Table is typical loose with minor bursts of aggression. Two limpers to me in BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]:K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I check. Four to the flop.

I don't think that I would have folded on the river. You may be up against a set or wheel but I would call the bet with top pair, top licker

FLOP: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked around. Still four players.

TURN: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB (loosey-goosey) checks, I bet, EP limper (tight by Commerce standards) calls, LP limper (loosest player in the free world) calls. SB now check-raises. I call as do the others. Four to the river.

RIVER: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB bets. I fold...

All comments welcomed.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to the forums. Why did you quote the original poster's post without adding any content of your own?

[Rick Nebiolo]

"Someone" asked me to take a look at this thread. Haven't looked at the rest of the responses or results yet.


[ QUOTE ]
Live at the Mecca, 9/18 nine-handed. Table is typical loose with minor bursts of aggression. Two limpers to me in BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]:K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I check. Four to the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should usually raise here with three opponents. Only check against the toughest, trickiest opponents, and even then often raise.


[ QUOTE ]
FLOP: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Checked around. Still four players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note this flop is a rainbow and open in the middle with only one often
played card (the nine). I like a bet here even more than if you actually raised BTF (had you raised BTF, the bet looks like a "continuation bet" of sorts and won't be believed as often by your opponents who will tend to optimistically put you on exactly what you have i.e., AK). Note you are often ahead on this board with "top two no pair" and if raised you are virtually always against at least a pair and can act accordingly on later streets.


[ QUOTE ]
TURN: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB (loosey-goosey) checks, I bet, EP limper (tight by Commerce standards) calls, LP limper (loosest player in the free world) calls. SB now check-raises. I call as do the others. Four to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

A three bet should be considered. There are now possible draws behind you that you would like to either drive out or charge. If it goes to a cap you can usually fold and still sleep at night.


[ QUOTE ]
RIVER: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB bets. I fold...

[/ QUOTE ]

With your passive play on earlier streets and tight image (a wild guess here [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) you can represent a big hand. Since you got a free play in the blinds your opponents have to fear that you could have a four and something such as A4 makes sense from their perspective. Raise and safely fold to reraise.

All this said, I'm too old to think fast enough anymore to actually play it this way at the table but I like the line. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick