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  #51  
Old 09-24-2005, 10:50 PM
phish phish is offline
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Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

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Thanks so much for all your replies!!! After reading all your posts....I think DcifrThs hit the nail on the head. Many good players do not value bet marginal hands enough where an advanced player knows when his marginal or even weak hand is best. I think this is a player reading skill...which can be hard when multitabling. I have a tendency to rely on stats...but stats only tell us a portion of what we need to know. So, one missed value bet every 100 hands...well, that's it!!!

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I disagree. In the progression of a poker player thin valuebetting is just an extension of agressive style. Advanced players transcend this and learn how to save bets. It is so much harder and riskier to fold for 1 bet on the river than putting in an extra one (to give one example).

It occurs to me that some of the best players posting in this forum are probably those with the highest percentage of fold advice (James282 and Paluka comes to mind).

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I disagree. As you say, it is much riskier to try to save a bet, since folding a winner at the end is the single biggest mistake you can make in poker. And don't you think the smarter players will pick up on this tendency and try to take advantage of it. And even if you're aware of it and adjust, it still means that you'll be put to the test more, which is never a good thing.

And looking at the poker literature, all the top pros stress the importance of not trying too hard to save that bet:
Greenstein in his recent book says one difference between the best players vs. the merely great is that the best players aren't worry so much about saving bets as they are in not doing anything stupid that may cost them the pot. (Such as betting a medium-strenght hand with the intention of folding when raised)
Jennifer Harmon in her chapter on holdem in SS II and Chip Reese in his stud chapter also both emphasize the importance of calling on the river.

I'm not suggesting that we should all be calling stations, but I certainly don't think this is what separates the good from the great. If anything, I think that the great players are better able to avoid getting in these difficult situations. But when faced with it, they won't be afraid to throw in that last bet.

(Also, funny you mentioned Paluka. I was in a hand against him recently where i was the aggressor the whole way and against most other players would have given up and checked the river given the texture of the board (lots of cards a reasonable BB defender could have). But since it was Paluka, i did fire that last bet and he folded. He might've simply had a busted flush draw, but all i had was jack high.)
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  #52  
Old 09-24-2005, 11:51 PM
B Dids B Dids is offline
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Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

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I feel like i'm missing a ton of bets.

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I know you asked the other Barron ... but there is a reason you are feeling what you're feeling.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

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agreed...that river AF of yours is low...1.5 something...gotta step it up.

one thing you should note is that if somebody calls from the blinds and you have KJo and the flop is Q83 rb and he check and calls and you hit a J on the turn and he check and calls again and he checks to you on a blank river, you have to bet it after he checks. maybe thats an obvious example but the point is if somebody checks and calls the whole hand, he'll do it on the river a lot, so BET your marginal hands for value.

Barron

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that's a pretty easy bet for me...i do have trouble doing things like value betting bottom pair and good aces when i think they'll call with A high...also a lot of times if i get check-raised on the turn and he checks to me on the river i wuss out and check-behind a lot even with mid pair type hands that are usually easy value bets.

i think my 1.74AF is on the low side but its an improvement from 2 months ago when it was 1.22 and i was "running bad" and i think that not value betting enough is one of the biggest leaks most ppl have (me included)

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This is basically a guess. But I imagine that since baronzeus plays a lot of more marginal holdings pretty aggressive on the flop and turn, he's probably in fewer positions to value bet on the river than you might expect.
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  #53  
Old 09-25-2005, 03:44 AM
rigoletto rigoletto is offline
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Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

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I disagree. As you say, it is much riskier to try to save a bet, since folding a winner at the end is the single biggest mistake you can make in poker. And don't you think the smarter players will pick up on this tendency and try to take advantage of it. And even if you're aware of it and adjust, it still means that you'll be put to the test more, which is never a good thing.

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This seems to confirm my point!
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  #54  
Old 09-25-2005, 10:03 AM
golferbrent golferbrent is offline
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Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

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Hello all. I've been playing poker full time for close to two years....anywhere from $3/$6 to $10/$20 (4 tables, 10 seated mostly) and have been consistently winning. However, I only made $20K last year (I bounced around sites, propped,....bad runs, learning curve, bad play etc....). I have played better this year but still have only made $30K so far. I can't tell if I'm not playing optimally or if it's just bad luck. My winrate is a little less than 1.0BB/100 hands (not counting rakeback).

I am a 15/8/1.6 player. I've read all the poker books, some of them several times. I am not a regular here, but have read many posts. I understand many advanced concepts. I've played many hands.

I play against some 17/15/2.2 type players and notice that they are the toughest opponents (and therefore think maybe I should be playing as they do). However, I can't help but notice these players making, what appears to be, bad plays (i.e. three betting my UTG raise with something like ATs then calling me down when they miss)....but, they seem to consistently win and to wreak havoc for me.

I guess my question is...what might I be missing? I know this is a difficult question to answer...I guess I'm just looking for some input. Am I playing too tight and conservatively (I've tried playing looser, but it always seems to end up killing me)? Should I be playing 6max games? What do you think separates a solid player from an advanced player?

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If you want to improve quickly... I would suggest playing fewer tables and focusing on improving your post-flop play. You can play great preflop but if you give up too much post-flop that is where good players are separated from great players. When I play full tables my stats are about 23/12/1.5, while winning at a 2.4/100 rate, but I play well post-flop, I can afford to give up a little pre-flop b/c I play well post-flop. I believe that this is a consistent position for most great players.
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  #55  
Old 09-25-2005, 08:39 PM
Ian J Ian J is offline
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Default Re: What separates a good player from an advanced player?

Thank you guys. This post was very insightful and I think I'm in a similar boat as the OP and Emperor so it was good to read.
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  #56  
Old 09-25-2005, 09:23 PM
TaintedRogue TaintedRogue is offline
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Posts: 46
Default Re:\"fit or fold\"

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You probably follow a fit or fold strategy which work for some games but are not optimal for the games you play.

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How would you define a game where a "fit or fold" approach would work?
Thanks,Ken
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