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  #31  
Old 12-08-2005, 03:00 PM
ellipse_87 ellipse_87 is offline
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Default Re: When not to make a continuation bet

One of the disadvantages of playing a hand post-flop from early position is that any attempt to get in a raise bears the cost of occasional missed bets and free cards. The late position player who regards continuation bets as "mandatory" neutralizes a substantial part of his positional advantage. One should not continuation bet all the time when checked to--that helps your opponent by foreclosing opportunities for him to make mistakes.
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  #32  
Old 12-08-2005, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: When not to make a continuation bet

[ QUOTE ]
One of the disadvantages of playing a hand post-flop from early position is that any attempt to get in a raise bears the cost of occasional missed bets and free cards. The late position player who regards continuation bets as "mandatory" neutralizes a substantial part of his positional advantage. One should not continuation bet all the time when checked to--that helps your opponent by foreclosing opportunities for him to make mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are also correct. When you feel your opponent won't call your bet with a worse hand but he may bluff the next street if you show weakness that's fine, but this was a coordinated flop that helped hero's hand enough that a semi-bluff was definitely appropriate. Sure you're trying to induce villain into making a mistake, but why give him control of the hand when you have no clue where you stand here? I like your thinking much better when hero is the one holding a monster on a ragged, non-coordinated flop that's very likely to have missed the villain. Hero was the original aggressor and I think that he needs to make an attempt to keep that control here and let villain define his hand a bit to us. This isn't exactly a safe flop for hero here - he's behind plenty of hands that call preflop and needs to hit his draw if he is going to win this hand. If you check behind and allow villain to lead the turn, what if an offsuit 9 falls and now you have a flush draw + straight draw and villain leads the turn? You've picked up some more outs but do you have any clue how strong your hand (or draw) may be in relation to the villains? With this line you only lose a small amount on a hand where you stand to lose a considerable amount by continuing on and missing your draws. The other possibility, as I stated earlier, is that villain may have called preflop with any pair 22-QQ and be ahead of you here but capable of laying it down if he can put you on a hand with a king and he isn't holding a pair that hit a set on the flop. It's unlikely that he'll fold a better hand on later streets if you don't represent a hand that's ahead of his right now.
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  #33  
Old 12-08-2005, 03:58 PM
allenciox allenciox is offline
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Default Re: When not to make a continuation bet

I love all of you (and there are a lot of you) who are making bets close to 100% of the time when your raise is called preflop. I'll check it to you every single time on the flop (because the rare time they don't make a bet is when they have hit their hand big), and often then raise, sometimes with air. So adanthar and the rest of you, please don't change your behavior --- keep betting every time you miss the flop when you raise preflop, I love it.
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  #34  
Old 12-08-2005, 04:27 PM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: When not to make a continuation bet

Where in my post did I say anything about 'always' or 'close to 100%' doing anything?
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  #35  
Old 12-08-2005, 06:11 PM
ellipse_87 ellipse_87 is offline
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Default Re: When not to make a continuation bet

OP's question was whether and how often to check the flop in position instead of making a continuation bet. If villain had seen hero cont. bet 100% after his preflop raises, then hero cost himself 150 chips in this hand by doing that. If on the other hand hero had checked a few draws and maybe a couple ragged flops previously, villain might have bet out here and hero saves those 150 chips.

So let's take this hand. Hero should bet most draws but check some. He's made cont. bets 100% previouly. So now, although certainly he may be giving up a chance to take the pot on the flop, why not check one? It may foil a checkraise, it may enable him to win chips against an overpair if the diamond comes, but most importantly it (1) subjects him to fewer checkraises from here on out, and (2) enables him to get chips on the turn sometimes with TP when opponent would have folded the flop, because hero's checks don't just mean made hands now, they mean missed flops too.

Cybr mentions this, check the flop only when you're able to extract value on the turn and the board's ragged, but this won't work if the table never sees hero check a missed flop after raising pf.

You also have to do this sometimes to set up some turn action that will give you a free showdown when you need it. Check-bet-raise-call on the flop cedes control of the hand to the out-of-position villain. Check-check, then bet-raise-call, lets you check the river behind, so now you're paying one street instead of three to see SD--this is invaluable sometimes but is never available to you if you auto-CB the flop, or check the flop in a predictable pattern.
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  #36  
Old 12-08-2005, 06:33 PM
Proofrock Proofrock is offline
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Default Re: When not to make a continuation bet

Perhaps I'm missing something in all of this discussion, but I think OP's point was that here he currently has a weak hand (one that he can't call a raise with), but he has a draw to a very strong hand. If he has either a strong hand or a weak hand, then CB isn't a problem because he has the easy decision if he gets played back at, but here he doesn't really want to fold, though he has to if Villain check-raises.

Whether to fire a CB here seems dependent upon Villain (does he play back frequently? is he aggressive, tricky, does he check-fold if he missed ...) and on Hero's image.

The possible outcomes, as I see them, are:
-check and take a free card.
-bet and take it down.
-bet and fold to a big raise.
-bet and shut down if called (unless you hit your draw).

Personally, I like checking in the given situation because we have a strong draw but a weak hand, we'll definitely get pushed off of our hand by a pair of kings or better on this board, and anybody without a pair of kings or better is unlikely to improve on the turn. So if it gets checked to us again, we have the option of betting the turn, and with a greater likelihood that our bet will take the pot. If Villain leads the turn, we can let pot odds/implied odds make our decision for us. Besides, checking the flop adds some deception to your play -- not only do you demonstrate that you won't CB 100% of the time, but if you've been active and people suspect you of CBing without a hand, a thinking Villain may also expect you to CB when connect with the flop (flush draw here).

The argument that checking invites Villain to take the hand away on the turn I find a little lacking. The same player who bluffs the turn with a weak hand is just as / more capable of check-raising the flop.
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  #37  
Old 12-08-2005, 07:23 PM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: When not to make a continuation bet

Without going into too many details and without saying that these are the only possible lines, here are some good flops to check J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] behind on with these stacks vs. a typical PF calling range:

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Some flops that can go either way:

Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Flops that I, personally, would always bet:

J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Half of this is straight out of SSH and I recommend anybody who doesn't get when to CB to read it.
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  #38  
Old 12-08-2005, 07:33 PM
Proofrock Proofrock is offline
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Default Re: When not to make a continuation bet

Would you explain why you would check J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] behind on an A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] board?

This is one board where I would be perfectly happy getting all-in on the flop (with 15 outs making me a favorite against Villain's range).
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  #39  
Old 12-08-2005, 07:33 PM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: When not to make a continuation bet

Because your FE on that board vs. him is somewhere between 0% and -5%.
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  #40  
Old 12-08-2005, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: When not to make a continuation bet

You said that you have started reading HOH2. He addresses how situations like this come up often and how important they are in developing your table image...this situation like others, harrington stresses a variation of plays to keep your opponents guessing. You played this hand fine, but perhaps the next time, change up your approach. Good luck.
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