Ethics: two computers, two players, same room, one tournament?

[dtbog]

I read another post on the MTT forum today which presented the following ethical dilemma -- but, to acquiesce to the OP's request, I didn't want to hijack the thread.

Situation: one online tournament. Say it's a $200+15 MTT on PartyPoker, though it makes no difference whatsoever.

Which of the following situations do you consider "unethical", and why?

As you think, consider for each scenario how you would feel using such a strategy yourself, and how you would feel playing against someone using such a strategy.

1) Two players in the same room on different computers, each staring at both monitors at the same time. These players are playing on two different accounts, paid with two tournament buy-ins. (Both players could be at the same table, or each could be at different tables... it is obviously random)

2) Two players in the same room, two tournament buy-ins etc etc as described above. The difference between this and (1) is that in this scenario, the players are sitting on opposite sides of the room, and only consult their partner if a crucial hand comes up.

3) Two players anywhere in the world who speak on the phone, over AIM, or in a chat room (off of the poker site) while playing in the same tournament.

4) Two players sitting in front of a single computer, playing a single tournament with a single account. These two players agree to split the entry fee and prize two ways.

5) A "tournament consultant" that agrees to answer players' questions ("should I call this all-in with QQ?") in real-time, for a fee. This consultant is, himself, playing in the tournament.

6) Same as (5), but the "consultant" is not himself playing in the tournament.

All responses welcome!

-dB

[DireWolf]

Here are my thoughts on this.

Personally i am fine with a player consulting with other people who are not in the tournament. Live, or online, i think its allright, since you are not gaining any information that the other players can not access.

When two players are in the same tournament it gets trickier. Live or online, i don't like it. If these players were on the same table, i think it would be too human not to cheat if the situation arose. If I had AA and my buddy had KK, are you really not going to say anything?

[yecul]

I don't think players should discuss ongoing hands with anyone currently in the same tournament. If the hand has already happened then I don't care (like in the official threads on this board).

If they're playing next to each other and can see their hole cards, but are at different tables... hmm... I don't like it, but they're currently using different decks, so...

Now, if they're at the same table then I have a huge problem with it.

[tiger7210]

I have a very good friend that we consult each other during a hand on certain decisions but ultimately we each make our own choices. I don't see that as cheating the other player as we still can't know what the other player is holding. I f I wanted to pay Phil Ivey to sit in my living room and consult me in a tournament I can't see how that should affect anyone else.

Now i do play in many of the same tournaments as my friend and if we do, which has been rare, end up t the same table we no longer consult each other because i do believe that is unethical. I've evn ben in a hand with him where I reraised him all in to try and knock him out just as I would with anyone else if I think I have him beat.

[pokerraja]

I think these are the problems with online poker. There are so many situations that are almost impossible to police. In a live tourney could you imagine talking to your freind on the table next to yours, "hey should I call this with AK?"? Online poker brings so many scenarios that are absolutely illegal in a live sanctioned tourney, but online they are "legal". There are so many top notch players who are playing 2-3 different accounts on the same tourney! Unethical? Of course.

[A_PLUS]

For the most part, having two people in the same house play in the same MTT is innocent. Being at the same table would be problematic if they could see each others monitors. But the general, "ohhh, I raised 3X BB from the button with AQ, and that aggressive big stack reraised me, should I fold?"
comments that occur most often during play are harmless. You are rarely going to have the 2nd player adding much insight anyway in the 30 seconds you have to act.

I think it is extremely common, especially for younger players to have freinds milling in the background, who are consulted about hands. I think this is fine. Id rather play against 4-5 players than one. Too many chefs in the kitchen.

That being said, who wants to sign up as my new set-up man? I am fairly good at accumulating chips early, and am respectable from the bubble to the final table, I just need someone to give me 2-3 levels in the middle. Maybe we can recruit a math whiz from the STT forum to close for us. I like it!

Actually, that is a very good idea, and definitely unethical.

[imported_torgeauxSA]

If you are both in the same tournament, you don't consult with each other, and you don't provide each other information that other players don't have. So, if you want to chat where the other players can see it, fine, otherwise, it's a no no.

Hire a consultant? Fine, if he isn't playing, otherwise, same rules as above.

[yoadrians]

1) Becomes a problem if they are ever placed at the same table. Otherwise, I don't have a problem with it.

2) See answer to No. 1

3) See answer to No. 1

4) Two heads are better than one ... doesn't bother me one bit

5) See answer to No. 1

6) See answer to No. 4

Answers to ethical questions, obviously, vary from person to person. As such, the only problem I have with any of this stuff is when two players, playing under two different accounts, playing in the same tournament, playing at the same table in said tournament, share information with each other.

Example: A friend and I very frequently buy into the same online tournaments. We watch each other's tables, chat with each other on the poker site or, during an interesting hand, will call each other and ask for advice. Also, we send hand histories to each other in mid-tournament. We're friends who enjoy poker and competition. We're OK with this interaction.

However, one or two times we have actually been at the same table midway to late in a tournament. At that point, the phone calls end and the real competition begins. I don't want to help him. He doesn't want to help me. We want to bust each other very badly - mostly for bragging rights and, of course, to better our position in the tournament and much some good $$$. And the second we're at different tables again, we begin chatting and using the phone and e-mail when we see fit.

Just my two cents.

[CardSharpCook]

One player, one hand. Isn't that the rule? My line has always been to refuse to discuss a hand in progress. If someone asks me, "what should I do?" or "what would you do here?", I either wait silently, or if they are clearly waiting for me, I tell them, "I'll talk about it when the hand is over." It isn't right to have a ringer on standby whenever you are faced with a difficult decision.

I don't mind letting others see my hole cards, so long as they give no comment AND they are out of the hand. The first time they give a comment is the last time they see my cards.

One player, one hand.

As for 2 players in the same room/tourney. I have no problem so long as they can behave honorably. Hell, back in the day, ALL tourney players used to be in the same room.... and it is always easy to stare across at your friend and give him a meaningful look - you just shouldn't do it.

So, live consultant is ok, so long as he only comments after the hand is complete.

CSC

[yoadrians]

"One player, one hand."

CSC, I haven't heard this before, but I definitely will have to re-evaluate my thinking on the 'two buddies playing together as one player' in a tournament question.

Have a friend who loves poker but his wife won't let him play for money. So, when he comes over, we 'play together' on an SNG or MTT. He gives me half the buy-in in cash, and, whatever we win, I always share with him. I never thought there was anything wrong with that, but, like I said, I will have to re-evaluate my thinking on the subject.

We all have lessons to learn, and I certainly am no different. Thanks again for the insight.

- yoadrians