Raise on the turn against my TPTK

phillydilly · #1 03-31-2005, 08:58 AM

Recently, my win @ showdown is hovering around 45%, not good. Obviously, calling down too much.

Here, i figured 4 possibilities, he's semi bluffing a diamond flush draw he picked up on the turn, Has something like KQ and thinks he has me beat, he hit the straight with T9, or he caught a two pair with something like QJ.

Upon review, with the button raising with 5 players, i probably should have given up, if this is heads up or 3 players, should i call this down though?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

River: (16 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB

imported_torgeauxSA · #2 03-31-2005, 10:10 AM

Do you have ANY read on the button? Taken in a vacuum, his raise on the turn, bet on the river seems like a T9 to me, as not sure what he would be holding for two pair with the 8, given the pf and flop betting. Of course, he could be holding the dreaded Q8o, a favorite of power players everywhere, in which case he did make his two pair. Nothing wrong with your call here, but looks like you're behind. HU would change the pot odds pretty significantly, too, so the math boggles my mind.

cflynn · #3 03-31-2005, 10:28 AM

Another distinct possiblity is a set -- waiting to the turn to raise a set is like rule one in the fish playbook.

I wouldn't recommend folding this without a good read on the button.

ErrantNight · #4 03-31-2005, 10:45 AM

since you can't be sure and you don't have a read you can prolly call down. pot is pretty big when he raises the turn.

Chris Daddy Cool · #5 03-31-2005, 10:57 AM

this just reminds me...

how often is a turn raise not a monster?

i'm only reminded of this because so many posts nowadays are about people waiting till the turn to raise a safe card for the medium pair or TPGK, TPTK type hands. how often do typical players do this rather than slowplaying a set, straight, etc, etc. ?

PokerProdigy · #6 03-31-2005, 11:01 AM

I like the way you played it. Even though two pair and the straight are both likely; so are a few other hands that you have beat, or have correct odds to maybe draw out on. In a pot this large I say you have to just play it the way you did, as having the best hand a small percentage of the time will still show a profit, on the other hand folding the best hand in a pot this large is a HUGE mistake.

Jeffage · #7 03-31-2005, 11:16 AM

Don't raise out of the small blind with this hand after 4 people enter the pot voluntarily. You are out of position the whole hand (and have given away your hand a bit) and are simply fattening the pot to give people good odds to suck out on you. If the hand was suited, definitely raise since it has more multiway value.

On the turn, I would consider dumping it if this guy is not overly aggro. He has raised a bet and two calls! People don't typically do that with one pair on this board. You're usually either looking at QJ, 10-9 or a slowplayed set. How many hands do you beat? And you have the other players to contend with. Headsup, I'd lean towards calling down here.

Jeff