QQ on the button and everyone goes crazy

[PygmyHero]

1/2 6 Max on the Prima network. The table is 5 handed. Everyone at the table seems pretty solid, but there is a fair amount of aggression. You are NOT just swapping blinds.

Preflop: Hero has Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the button
UTG raises, CO re-raises, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (13 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB cold calls, UTG re-raises, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (12.5 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB check-raises, UTG cold calls, CO 3 bets, Hero cold calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (24.5 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

Final pot 27.75 BB

I think the queens run into at least one interesting decision in this hand. I'm also interested to know what hands people put the other players on, and, in light of that, whether or not they played well.

[McGahee]

Cap PF
Flop is fine
I don't know what's worse - your river call or your turn coldcall. When SB coldcalls the flop and C/R's the turn into 3 different PF/flop aggressors you've got to put him on at least AT; and CO's 3-bet looks like JJ.
Honestly, what are you ahead of on the river? KJ?

[PygmyHero]

Thanks for the response.

I think its interesting you put the SB on AT. I was thinking 98. I admit that that's a really loose call PF, but I'm sure they were sooooted and all...AT certainly looks more likely PF (that is, a hand you may defend with), but the turn 7 wakes him up. On the river, if SB has AT, I think he bets or raises, figuring he may have been behind on the turn, but just caught good.

By the way, I wasn't the button in this hand. I just thought it most interesting to post it from their perspective. So you're saying the queens should fold the turn, right? Do you mean fold to the CO's bet, or fold when the SB check raises?

[Nick C]

This is just crazy. Maybe Shill will be able to figure out what everyone has, but I can't.

But, here goes:

On the flop, I think UTG has a boat, trips, a jack, an overpair (not so likely, since he didn't cap preflop), or KQ.

CO's could have AQ, AK, an overpair, or JJ. AJ/AT is also possible, as are underpairs (but the flop bet is optimistic, if that's what he's got).

On the turn, when UTG checks, I start thinking he either has decided to be tricky for the entire hand with his monster or he does in fact have KQ. Then again, maybe his flop check/3-bet didn't thin the field as much as he (over-optimistically) hoped it would, and he has a hand like KJ.

When SB checkraises, I'm thinking we just located a ten (or JJ).

When CO 3-bets, that's not a good sign. I guess maybe he slowed down after the flop raise and 3-bet for deception purposes but then found himself leading again when he got checked to again. His turn 3-bet is pretty scary. I'm thinking JJ, at this point. 77 is also possible, I guess, and even TT can't be ruled out. Also, maybe he thinks AA is still the nuts (but I doubt that's what's going on).

If UTG really had KQ, then at least he's smart enough to realize his straight is probably not going to be enough on the river. I don't like a flop check/3-bet with KQ, after that preflop action, on a paired board, despite the overcards + OESD (if that's what he had).

If SB had trips (that's my guess), I think he should have played more aggressively on the flop. I wouldn't slowplay in this spot.

If I were CO and flopped the nuts or 2nd nuts, I probably would have just capped the flop and played fast.

For your part, I'm wondering if you should have folded when it came back two more to you on the turn. Also, I think I would have capped preflop.

[PygmyHero]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm wondering if you should have folded when it came back two more to you on the turn. Also, I think I would have capped preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely QQ should fold instead of cold calling the SB's turn check raise. I also agree QQ caps PF. The other person to reply agreed with both of these plays as well.

I was really interested to see if anyone thinks that QQ should fold on the flop, or to the CO's turn bet.

I realize that even if the button is behind on the flop, the pot is huge and he can peel the turn hoping to spike a Q. It's not 100% clear to me how the chances of being up against TT and drawing almost dead figure into this.

Let me be more clear - QQ has two opportunities to fold after the flop (but before the turn). I think we all agree that the flop raise of the CO's bet is correct. When UTG 3 bets, the pot is so large that QQ should peel but know that QQ is behind.

Thus it makes some sense that when the CO leads again, QQ should fold. I don't think the odds to spike are there anymore.

QQ clearly should fold to the turn SB check raise and resultant CO 3 bet (a cold call here does not even close the action!), but again, should QQ consider folding to CO's turn lead (again, not closing the action).

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm wondering if you should have folded when it came back two more to you on the turn. Also, I think I would have capped preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely QQ should fold instead of cold calling the SB's turn check raise. I also agree QQ caps PF. The other person to reply agreed with both of these plays as well.

I was really interested to see if anyone thinks that QQ should fold on the flop, or to the CO's turn bet.

I realize that even if the button is behind on the flop, the pot is huge and he can peel the turn hoping to spike a Q. It's not 100% clear to me how the chances of being up against TT and drawing almost dead figure into this.

Let me be more clear - QQ has two opportunities to fold after the flop (but before the turn). I think we all agree that the flop raise of the CO's bet is correct. When UTG 3 bets, the pot is so large that QQ should peel but know that QQ is behind.

Thus it makes some sense that when the CO leads again, QQ should fold. I don't think the odds to spike are there anymore.

QQ clearly should fold to the turn SB check raise and resultant CO 3 bet (a cold call here does not even close the action!), but again, should QQ consider folding to CO's turn lead (again, not closing the action).

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop, I think Button needs to peel. I'm not even positive he's losing, even after UTG checkraises. Also, while TT is possible, it's really just not very likely, mathematically, so I don't think we should be worrying about it too much, yet. Even if we're certain UTG flopped a monster, JJ is 3 times as likely (in terms of combos) as TT, and AT (12 combos) is also quite possible.

On the turn, I don't think CO's bet necessarily means CO has Button beat. CO did slow down after the flop check/3-bet, and he could be betting AJ again, because he was checked to again. Meanwhile, SB could easily be chasing overs + gutshot, or he could have a top-pair hand that he knows probably isn't good. And UTG could have (somewhat foolishly, in my opinion) check/3-bet a draw on the flop.

All of this is a lot to ask for, and the bet does in fact come from an awkward spot. Maybe a fold is best, but I probably would have called. If we'll occasionally have the best hand, and we can frequently get to the river for just this one bet, then those rare times we catch a queen (along with the pot size) may make up for the fact that we're probably not best here all that often.

Folding for two more seems like a good idea to me, though. SB's checkraise followed by CO's 3-bet is extremely scary. I think both of them have Button beat.

[McGahee]

Interesting -
I'm not good enough to make this Helmuth-esque laydown on the flop, especially in an aggressive 5-handed game.
I thought about calling the flop and waiting for a safe turn since the board is so draw-heavy. My problem with that is I don't think CO is betting AK/AQ on the turn very often and if we do raise his turn bet we probably just end up isolating ourselves with the worst hand drawing to 2 outs.

[Shillx]

Hmmm

SB: KT/QT or 98 (he has you toasted that is for sure)
CO: JJ/TT
UTG: ???

It is tough to put them on a hand. The CO will sometimes show AA or something and UTG is very tough to read here since his play makes just about no sense in this spot. Trying to put people on specific hands in multiway pots generally does more harm then good since you are wrong a lot of the time and folding can be very costly. Even more so against people like UTG who are just being totally random. It is safe to say that SB has you in very bad shape the way the hand has gone down.

Nick your guesses look pretty good to me here.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, I wasn't the button in this hand. I just thought it most interesting to post it from their perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's all been pretty much said for the hand, I'd just like to give you an attaboy for mixing it up a little. Helps keep it fresh.