Snapping off a Bluff (5-10 deep stack example)

[FoxwoodsFiend]

Seems like a call-if you're ahead, only a call gets him to put in money without putting in enough on the turn or river to really put you to the test. Where is this 5/10 game? Did they start spreading new games up in Foxwoods?

[cero_z]

Hi aggie,

I don't get involved much in spots like this, where you kind of have to be a super hero to make it pay. But, sometimes you just want to put on your red cape and jump off the highest thing around. In that case...

if the guy hadn't seen me call down a couple of decent-sized bets with AK-high before, then I'd think for a while before calling, to make sure he thinks I have a very weak hand (like the one I have or something else bad like A4s). Then, if I thought he bought it, I'd call a big bet most of the time, and fold to a small bet somewhat more often than put odds indicate. The idea is to induce as many bluffs as possible, since presumably he doesn't think you can call again with just AK. If he thinks this and has a real hand, then why would he bet big? If he bets small, you can't automatically fold, because he may reason that "you wouldn't call a second bet with 'nothing' anyway, so why waste chips when [he's] wrong?" But, you cannot let him value bet you with a mediocre hand here--that's why I think it's important that he hasn't seen you call down with AK before.

People are saying that a check-behind is automatic on the river, but you have to consider his range. If it's one of those times when he might have nothing or a little something, but never a big hand, then a substantial bet (300 or so) is called for on the river, to ensure that you always win, as opposed to only winning when AK is good. But, maybe this guy's good enough to realize that you might call with AK and then bluff the river. Hard to say from here.

Good post, in any event.

[aggie]

yea....this was foxwoods....The 5-10 is a 1k minimum buyin and plays very deep. It usually only runs on the weekends (including Friday). It's the biggest semi regular NL game that's going these days.

[ML4L]

Hey cero,

[ QUOTE ]
if the guy hadn't seen me call down a couple of decent-sized bets with AK-high before, then I'd think for a while before calling, to make sure he thinks I have a very weak hand (like the one I have or something else bad like A4s). Then, if I thought he bought it, I'd call a big bet most of the time, and fold to a small bet somewhat more often than put odds indicate. The idea is to induce as many bluffs as possible, since presumably he doesn't think you can call again with just AK. If he thinks this and has a real hand, then why would he bet big? If he bets small, you can't automatically fold, because he may reason that "you wouldn't call a second bet with 'nothing' anyway, so why waste chips when [he's] wrong?" But, you cannot let him value bet you with a mediocre hand here--that's why I think it's important that he hasn't seen you call down with AK before.

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Good analysis. It sounded like we didn't need to factor in bet size because Hero thought Villain would bet smallish no matter what, but in spots where that is not a given, your take regarding bet size is correct (unless the guy is good...).

[ QUOTE ]
People are saying that a check-behind is automatic on the river, but you have to consider his range. If it's one of those times when he might have nothing or a little something, but never a big hand, then a substantial bet (300 or so) is called for on the river, to ensure that you always win, as opposed to only winning when AK is good. But, maybe this guy's good enough to realize that you might call with AK and then bluff the river. Hard to say from here.

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I disagree with this if the Villain is any good. By the same token that you would feel good about calling a river bet if Villain led big, what better hand do you think Villain is checking and folding to a substantial river bet? What hand does Hero represent? Unless he knows you to check behind on the flop with decent hands, you will surely get called on the river by bottom pair. Also, betting the river opens you up to a check-raise bluff which it sounds like this opponent is capable of making (although, if he had no pair, he would probably just lead the river again). Anyway, I don't think that you get a better hand to fold often enough to bet the river under most circumstances.

Mike

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]


People are saying that a check-behind is automatic on the river, but you have to consider his range. If it's one of those times when he might have nothing or a little something, but never a big hand, then a substantial bet (300 or so) is called for on the river, to ensure that you always win, as opposed to only winning when AK is good.

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this is a key point. snapping bluffs and losing anyways sucks.

[lapoker17]

As the PF raiser, I bet that flop in position nearly always. The hand is either over, or then plays much more easily.