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Old 11-30-2005, 03:53 PM
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Default Betting with the second nuts.

This hand happened to me about 6 months ago at foxwoods 4-8. It was about 4:30 am, and I was playing all night, the villian is the guy to the left of me is your normal weak passive player and I took some big pots off him earlier in the night with nut flushes and such. So one hand I look down at Q-8 suited in the blind and villian and I think 2 others are in there with me.

Flop comes Q-8-X rainbow, I checked the flop villian bet the flop other people fold I raise, Villian calls. Turn is a jack, I bet, villian raises, I 3 bet, villian calls. River is a Queen so the board now reads Q-8-X-J-Q, with Q-8 I have the second nuts, so I check it trying to induce a bet and sure enough he bets, I raise him, he 3 bets, I make it 4 bets, He makes it 5 bets. This has me really afraid now, he could be doing this with JJ with jacks full but he only limped preflop, so I flat called his raise and he turns over Q-J off for the nuts.

Now my question is when I have the second nuts in limit heads up how many bets should I be willing to make. I like to limit myself at 6 bets. Should it be more or would it be situation dependant depending if I'm up against a rock or a super loose player. Like I said he was really weak passive, and He could have been doing this with pocket jacks.
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Old 11-30-2005, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: Betting with the second nuts.

since he raised on the turn after you c/r the flop probably means the he improved his hand with either a QJ/JJ/910. He could be on a draw too but since you said he was loose passive i wouldnt think that he would raise the turn after you c/r him on the flop and lead out on the turn.

Considering this i would just call it at 3 bets at the river, but if it wasnt for that read i think youre 5 bet is fine
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Old 11-30-2005, 04:38 PM
SoCalPat SoCalPat is offline
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Default Re: Betting with the second nuts.

First, why are you going for a check-raise heads up on the river? Don't you want to be raised (OK, bad question given the results, but you get my point)? You can't make it three bets if you don't give them a chance to make it two. Bet the river.

As to your question, you should know that QJ is a popular limping hand. In a game in which the betting is capped at four bets, I'm going all the way. I'm guessing this game was unlimited raises at the river. He bet out and raised you twice. You were right in just calling down here, but had you bet out, he would've raised you twice (which definitely would've sounded the alarm), but it would've cost you one fewer bet.

Now, lets say if the board read Q-5-4-X-Q, and I'm holding Q4 to my opponent's Q5, I'm probably going to put in a few more raises. So be it.

But given your read on him, in addition to the board, I would allow similar players two raises before slowing down with the second nuts. Weak passive players wouldn't go crazy here with trips or a straight.
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Old 11-30-2005, 05:04 PM
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Default Re: Betting with the second nuts.

If the turn was a rag, then you feel better about reraising until someone is out of money. A Jack on the turn spells trouble. As someone else posted, Q-J is a common hand. The Vilian, even if he is soft and loose, still is privledged to the same hands as everyone else. Personally, you'll only find me in a raising war with the ABSOLUTE NUTS. Heads-up, you're only getting 2:1 on your money anyway. In your case, you had third best: QQ (the nuts), QJ, Q8.
In summary, its always easy to analyze a hand after its happened but your post rang a bell with me because I always try to be cognizant of what hands are common limpers. When those cards are on the board, I usually slow down unless they helped me too.
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Old 11-30-2005, 05:37 PM
graydot graydot is offline
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Default Re: Betting with the second nuts.

sorry to nitpick but QQ is not the nuts here, although it may look like the nuts if the cards were hidden, the hand QQ is not a possible hand in this example, thus making QJ the nuts
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