Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Tournament Poker > Multi-table Tournaments

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:04 PM
napawino napawino is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2
Default Pokerdb and the IRS

I PMd N 82 50 24 with this question and he suggested throwing it out to the forum.

Does Pokerdb inadvertently help the IRS more easily identify poker-playing tax cheats?

Of course the answer is PAY YOUR TAXES, but assuming there are some people that wont, does Pokerdb make it easier to identify these people? Since the U.S. IRS requires gross gambling proceeds to be reported, if a taxpayer reported less than the amount of winnings posted on the database wouldnt that be a fairly automatic violation or invitation for an audit?

Obviously this information is available via subpoena from the poker sites themselves (assuming that in the era of terrorist money-trafficking, the sites would comply), but Pokerdb puts the information at the fingertips of even the laziest of IRS agents. Does the fact that pokerdb only tracks PokerStars tournaments and not the cash games or other sites affect either PokerStars or Pokerdb?

Im not a big winner and Im as anal retentive as they come with my records and filings, but I wanted to throw the question out to the group.

-Napawino
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:22 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Pokerdb and the IRS

[ QUOTE ]
I PMd N 82 50 24 with this question and he suggested throwing it out to the forum.

Does Pokerdb inadvertently help the IRS more easily identify poker-playing tax cheats?

Of course the answer is PAY YOUR TAXES, but assuming there are some people that wont, does Pokerdb make it easier to identify these people? Since the U.S. IRS requires gross gambling proceeds to be reported, if a taxpayer reported less than the amount of winnings posted on the database wouldnt that be a fairly automatic violation or invitation for an audit?

Obviously this information is available via subpoena from the poker sites themselves (assuming that in the era of terrorist money-trafficking, the sites would comply), but Pokerdb puts the information at the fingertips of even the laziest of IRS agents. Does the fact that pokerdb only tracks PokerStars tournaments and not the cash games or other sites affect either PokerStars or Pokerdb?

Im not a big winner and Im as anal retentive as they come with my records and filings, but I wanted to throw the question out to the group.

-Napawino

[/ QUOTE ]

as you stated cash games and other sites are not tracked. in addition sitngo's are not tracked. I don't know if thepokerdb is guaranteeing that their results are 100% accurate either. but yeah it may be just enough for the IRS to start an investigation into your "earnings" especially if you had any BIG cashes.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:25 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Pokerdb and the IRS

I'm in no way a tax expert, but the little bit that I've read suggests you need to report your winnings per session, and that one day is a reasonable length for a 'session'. So while you aren't allowed to report only your net profit unless you file as a pro, you don't have to report every single tournament win, just the amount you win or lose in a given 'session' (day). Pokerdb, then, won't necessarily show even the minimum amoung that one ought to be reporting.

Once again, that's only my amateurish understanding, and I'm in no way confident this is correct.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:30 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Pokerdb and the IRS

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in no way a tax expert, but the little bit that I've read suggests you need to report your winnings per session, and that one day is a reasonable length for a 'session'. So while you aren't allowed to report only your net profit unless you file as a pro, you don't have to report every single tournament win, just the amount you win or lose in a given 'session' (day). Pokerdb, then, won't necessarily show even the minimum amoung that one ought to be reporting.

Once again, that's only my amateurish understanding, and I'm in no way confident this is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, I'm not anywhere near a pro, nor a tax expert, but it sounds like you are saying you would eventually have to report every session(day). Wouldn't it make more sense for it to be monthly or quarterly and for you to be able to use your account history to this end.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:33 PM
graydot graydot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 36
Default Re: Pokerdb and the IRS

How would the IRS connect you to a nickname?

If IRS goes to pokerstars to identify your nickname they can probably get the information from pokerstars directly instead of relying on pokerdb

- Paul
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:39 PM
N 82 50 24 N 82 50 24 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3
Default Re: Pokerdb and the IRS

[ QUOTE ]
I PMd N 82 50 24 with this question and he suggested throwing it out to the forum.

Does Pokerdb inadvertently help the IRS more easily identify poker-playing tax cheats?

Of course the answer is PAY YOUR TAXES, but assuming there are some people that wont, does Pokerdb make it easier to identify these people? Since the U.S. IRS requires gross gambling proceeds to be reported, if a taxpayer reported less than the amount of winnings posted on the database wouldnt that be a fairly automatic violation or invitation for an audit?

Obviously this information is available via subpoena from the poker sites themselves (assuming that in the era of terrorist money-trafficking, the sites would comply), but Pokerdb puts the information at the fingertips of even the laziest of IRS agents. Does the fact that pokerdb only tracks PokerStars tournaments and not the cash games or other sites affect either PokerStars or Pokerdb?

Im not a big winner and Im as anal retentive as they come with my records and filings, but I wanted to throw the question out to the group.

-Napawino

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I wanted the chance to respond publicly to this. Here's why I don't think anyone has to be worried in the case that they underreport.

First, there are so many different places you can win or lose in poker. Off the top of my head: cash games, satellites, MTTs, STTs, prop bets. We only have MTTs.

Second, there are a lot of places to play MTTs: PokerStars, PartyPoker, Dise, UB, Prima, Bodog, Pacific, FTP, PokerRoom, live in a casino, etc. We only have PokerStars.

Third, our results aren't perfect on a per person basis. Here are some of the reasons they can be off: other people can play on your account, you can play on another account, you can chop a tournament or you can go rebuy crazy.

While our data MAY cause the IRS to open an audit of someone (I have no idea at all if they even do that sort of thing), the data is VERY far from correct regarding someone's overall poker income. In addition, of course, the IRS would have to have access to our subscription service (display shown here: http://www.thepokerdb.com/sample.php) as the normal display is really useless for these purposes.

BTW, graydot (aka Paul) is the tech expert behind thepokerdb. Jurollo, can he get a title too? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:45 PM
N 82 50 24 N 82 50 24 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3
Default Re: Pokerdb and the IRS

[ QUOTE ]
How would the IRS connect you to a nickname?

If IRS goes to pokerstars to identify your nickname they can probably get the information from pokerstars directly instead of relying on pokerdb

- Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd actually think it would be relatively easy to connect someone to their main nickname.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:56 PM
Lloyd Lloyd is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 412
Default Re: Pokerdb and the IRS

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in no way a tax expert, but the little bit that I've read suggests you need to report your winnings per session, and that one day is a reasonable length for a 'session'. So while you aren't allowed to report only your net profit unless you file as a pro, you don't have to report every single tournament win, just the amount you win or lose in a given 'session' (day). Pokerdb, then, won't necessarily show even the minimum amoung that one ought to be reporting.

Once again, that's only my amateurish understanding, and I'm in no way confident this is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bleh, tax issues in MTT. Don't like it.

You are correct in that if you do not file as a professional gambler you need to report on a per session basis. Furthermore, your losses are not deducted from your winnings. You report your winnings on the income side and your losses as an itemized deduction (not subject to the 2% floor and only to the extent of your winnings). So it's possible that you have ENORMOUS income AND losses from gambling, separately, even if you have 0 net winnings. This would certainly be a flag for the IRS.

Most poker players who are successful and play often would have some advantage of filing as a pro. I'm not a tax professional but there are plenty of books and people who can help with this.

I see very little benefit in the IRS looking up a nickname on Pokerdb and using that against you. I would be more worried that they subpeona records from Neteller or simply do an audit of your bank account and question as to how those funds suddenly appeared.

And yes, the easiest and best answer is to simply pay your taxes. I'm all about pushing the grey area but this is beyond your opinion and amounts to fraud (i.e. fines and possible jail time).
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:40 PM
napawino napawino is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2
Default Re: Pokerdb and the IRS

Sorry for posting in the wrong spot. I actually thought I had put this in the Internet forum, but obviously mis-clicked as I jumped around. (I was multi-tasking at work, so I guess I have a mild excuse.)

Lloyd, is it possible to move a thread to another forum?

Regarding the question at hand: The IRS has left it to the individual to define "each session", but for tournament play I've always assumed it means "each tournament" Of course it gets really confusing when you're multi-tabling cash games and playing tournaments, but I'm sure the rules were made for the B&M experience of gambling. In any case, PT does a good job of providing the data and I've always just dumped the data to a spreadsheet as a backup for my tax reporting.

-Napawino
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:44 PM
IHateKeithSmart IHateKeithSmart is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: check folding the nuts
Posts: 182
Default Re: Pokerdb and the IRS

[ QUOTE ]
other people can play on your account

[/ QUOTE ]

This right here is enough to shed any worries about the taxman. You don't even have to go as far as arguing plausible deniability, etc., since the PS TOS doesn't forbid this.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.