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  #1  
Old 12-26-2005, 09:39 PM
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Default Stars180 SNG hand

Late in tournament with 24-25 people left (18 pay out)
Hero has been rather tight for a while, no read on villian
blinds are 200/400 with 25 ante
Hero has 10 120
Villian has 9270
Dealt to hero is KcKd
Villian calls UTG
folded around to me CO
i make it 1200
Villian calls.
pot = 3200
Flop comes [Tc As Ah]
Villian bets 1200
Hero calls 1200
pot = 5600
Turn comes [2c]
Villian checks
Hero bets 2000 (is this the right play?)
Villian raises 4845 (all in)
Hero ?

Did I play this hand poorly? Should I have raised on the flop or folded or what?
Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 12-26-2005, 10:14 PM
Blindcurve Blindcurve is offline
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Default Re: Stars180 SNG hand

I guess I don't understand why you bet on the turn when you are either way ahead or way behind. I don't think you get any more information with your bet here- I don't think you get any more information smooth calling on the flop.

I think I would call here, thinking he's trying to use C/R fold equity to push me off. I wouldn't at all be surprised to go unnecessarily broke.

I liked the idea of trying to play a smaller pot on the flop by smooth calling. I think you should check behind on this turn given your flop action and call a reasonable river bet.

What I probably would have done is raised the flop to about 4K. If the villain doesn't have an ace or TT your raise will look just as scary to him as his lead did to you, and you have position. Reevaluate if he calls or reraises A/I.
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  #3  
Old 12-26-2005, 10:14 PM
MikeSmith MikeSmith is offline
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Default Re: Stars180 SNG hand

Id raise more preflop, you are giving him 3 to 1 to call preflop, with one limper in this situation i make 2000 at least.

On the flop...
i would reraise(id prefer a fold over a call on the flop to put him to a test...if you call you simply dont know where you are at)

If he reraises all in right there its pretty easy to put him on an ace-high card or 1010 unless he has been restealing.

Even if he calls im pretty much finished with the hand. You might have lost 40 percent of chips but i really dont see you ahead after a reraise all in on the flop.
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  #4  
Old 12-26-2005, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Stars180 SNG hand

Preflop you could have raised more, but it depends on your image/previous raising patterns.

The crossroads comes on the flop. I like your flat call in that it minimizes exposure in a hand where you have only 2 outs if you are beat. After this, I definitely check behind on the turn, and go to the river with 5k still left on Villain's stack. Though you say there are no reads, I probably lean towards calling a bigger bet than a small bet, as a pot sized all-in is a sign of weakness to me.

However, the better play in my mind is a flop minraise to 2400, making the pot about 7.5k if you are called, and leaving 3.5k on Villain's stack. Even if he has an Ace, this scares him of TT or being outkicked, in which case he may even be willing to check it down. If he isn't, you have no choice but to fold, but still saved the 3.5k you could have lost. This line allows him the greatest chance to make a mistake.
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  #5  
Old 12-26-2005, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: Stars180 SNG hand

The reason i did not raise to 4x BB is because I raised everything 3xBB and that seemed to be the common place for the raise. I know that someone limped in UTG, but I still wanted him in the hand I guess.
Results are, after pondering for a bit, I made the call and he had KQo
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  #6  
Old 12-26-2005, 11:48 PM
Dave D Dave D is offline
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Default Re: Stars180 SNG hand

The PF raise is fine, you don't want everyone folding, you want to get some value.

I'm not a huge fan of the turn bet, I think I raise his flop bet just for some info. Once he raises me I punch something and fold.

You have to realize, especially at this point in the tourney, what does he limp UTG with? What does he limp/call UTG with (two seperate questions, just think about them seperatly).

He HAS to have some sort of Ace. What does he push with?

It sucks, but if you're a good player you'll fold kings here.

EDIT: I'm very surprised at the results, you got very lucky
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  #7  
Old 12-26-2005, 11:55 PM
Dave D Dave D is offline
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Default Re: Stars180 SNG hand

[ QUOTE ]

However, the better play in my mind is a flop minraise to 2400, making the pot about 7.5k if you are called, and leaving 3.5k on Villain's stack. Even if he has an Ace, this scares him of TT or being outkicked, in which case he may even be willing to check it down. If he isn't, you have no choice but to fold, but still saved the 3.5k you could have lost. This line allows him the greatest chance to make a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gross. No.

Never ever min raise. Why would you EVER raise him that much, just to leave him w/ 3.5k. If he has hero beat he's going to push and hero pretty much HAS to call just for pot odds reasons. So why not just go ahead and push yourself and maximize FE against the possible weaker Ace. Though I doubt many players fold the weaker Ace.

Min raising would be about the worst hting you can do here.
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  #8  
Old 12-27-2005, 12:26 AM
betgo betgo is offline
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Default Re: Stars180 SNG hand

I think the preflop raise is fine. You are enticing villain to call. I think this play is good in a $20 20-table SNGs. Against good players, I don't necessarily want to raise a limper to 5xBB with AQ and 3xBB with KK, as they might pick up on this.

I would check/call this all the way. I woould call the raise on the turn.
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  #9  
Old 12-27-2005, 12:43 PM
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Default Re: Stars180 SNG hand

[ QUOTE ]


Gross. No.

Never ever min raise. Why would you EVER raise him that much, just to leave him w/ 3.5k. If he has hero beat he's going to push and hero pretty much HAS to call just for pot odds reasons. So why not just go ahead and push yourself and maximize FE against the possible weaker Ace. Though I doubt many players fold the weaker Ace.

Min raising would be about the worst hting you can do here.

[/ QUOTE ]

And your proposal is a "flop raise". Well, the flop raise is what commits you to the pot. A minraise gives you FE for an all-in.

I do not see him coming over the top as our minraise shows strength, and may seem like it commits us, but it doesn't. With a draw like he had, he likely just calls and checks it down as he is glad to take free cards for his draw. With an ace, he gives us a chance to escape, while all previous lines I've seen either don't extract out enough information (making the KK fold likely correct but risky and audacious), or stick their whole stack in like you propose in a spot with only two outs. He is not folding a smaller ace to an all-in unless he is incompetent - the only thing he does with Ax is try to keep the pot small, which is what we want anyway.

His holding is black-or-white - either his hand is too strong to fold, or its too weak to do anything more than reluctantly call the minraise and hope to draw out, or maybe even fold.
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  #10  
Old 12-27-2005, 01:15 PM
Dave D Dave D is offline
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Default Re: Stars180 SNG hand

[ QUOTE ]

And your proposal is a "flop raise". Well, the flop raise is what commits you to the pot. A minraise gives you FE for an all-in.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd make it 3000 to go on the flop. If villian pushes we can safely fold with 6k left. It's kinda ugly, but it puts villian to the test. We're really not committed here by raising his flop bet though, we're testing him, finding out he has us beat, and folding. Personally though I like just calling his flop bet slightly better.

[ QUOTE ]


I do not see him coming over the top as our minraise shows strength, and may seem like it commits us, but it doesn't.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, generally the min raise is the biggest tell of a huge hand, but a lot of people don't notice that. Never EVER min raise, not only because it's a tell, but also in this case it makes no sense. Donks don't say "oooh he min raised me, that scares me", he's probably just going to push back, in which case you just lost your chance to put HIM to the test.

Investing 3.5k into the pot and then folding for another 3.5k makes ZERO sense to me. If you're going to raise the turn, you might as well push to put him to the test. You're getting 2 to 1 if he calls your push, so you only need to be right 2/3 of the time for this push to be profitable. Nevermind the times you fold out a weaker Ace (which I suppose there is some chance of happening), or he might call with a lower PP he was slowplaying.

Villian has already shown he probably has us beat.

[ QUOTE ]


With a draw like he had, he likely just calls and checks it down as he is glad to take free cards for his draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be results oriented. Villian played this just like he had an Ace. Though he has shown that he's a massive donk, I doubt he's dumb enough to think he's realistically drawing to make his gutshot. Villian tried to bluff hero out big time here, he played this like he had an Ace.

As far as I'm concerned hero got VERY lucky here. Calling with KQo UTG and then calling a raise is absolutly awful. Especially at that late stage (I presume it's fairly late, I haven't played that tourney before)

[ QUOTE ]


With an ace, he gives us a chance to escape, while all previous lines I've seen either don't extract out enough information (making the KK fold likely correct but risky and audacious), or stick their whole stack in like you propose in a spot with only two outs.


[/ QUOTE ]

I CLEARLY advocated folding, but I said that a min raise would be awful as you should just push all in if you're going to take that line. It's still a bad line though.

[ QUOTE ]


He is not folding a smaller ace to an all-in unless he is incompetent - the only thing he does with Ax is try to keep the pot small, which is what we want anyway.


[/ QUOTE ]

He might fold something like A2, you never know. All I said is that if you're trying to get FE against possibly an Ace, you're better off pushing because Min raising wont cut it.
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