Question for Pro-Choicers (Man kills zygote)

I've never really spent much time thinking about the abortion debate, but when I do, I can't think of a solid argument for being pro-choice. I also believe logic rather than morals or religious beliefs can be used to form a strong argument for being pro-life (I state this b/c I've heard pro-choicers label pro-lifers as moral elitists).

I don't know if pro-choicers is the correct term, and I don't regularly follow the threads in this forum, so I apologize for using an incorrect term or if this topic has been frequently touched upon.

Anyways, this question is for those of you who don't believe that a fetus (or zygote, or whatever collection of cells after conception) is not the same as a person.

If a man punches (or gives a good Chuck Norris kick to) a woman's belly, and kills her zygote/fetus/etc soon after conception, how much of a punishment should he receive? How would his punishment compare to him killing an 8-month fetus, an infant, a child, etc?

Just to start things off, I'd assume those who are pro-choice would believe that he has not killed a human being and should be punished less than a baby killer. But those who are pro-life would say he's is a baby killer.

I'm pro-choice, but I don't believe justice should be punitive. So your question really doesn't apply.

[snowden719]

Vincent,
what a great post, I don;t know how anyone could possibly claim that a person who killed a fetus in a mother's womb should deserve more punishment then someone who assaults a woman but less than a person who assaults a woman and kills an infant. What an absurd position. Thank you for pointing out the obvious contradiction in being pro choice, you've really convinced me.
love, snowden

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Depends on the State. In Mass., where abortion after 24 weeks is illegal, I guess he could be charged with something more than just kicking the woman if she was more than 24 weeks along. Otherwise, he shouldn't be charged with anything more than he would be for kicking any other person.

"An embryo has no rights." - Ayn Rand

[RJT]

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"An embryo has no rights." - Ayn Rand

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Well, that should settle the issue. End of thread.

(Just kidding, Kurn. Couldn’t resist, not a big fan.)

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I apologize for using an incorrect term or if this topic has been frequently touched upon.

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Check out this thread: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=3935186

I'm still waiting to hear more from Sklansky, actually. I have not heard any rational argument for why a zygote/embryo should be considered a "person" and thus given the "right to life".

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If a man punches (or gives a good Chuck Norris kick to) a woman's belly, and kills her zygote/fetus/etc soon after conception, how much of a punishment should he receive?

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The majority of the punishment would be for assaulting the woman. I think the fetus would be the woman's "property", and so damages could be assessed for that (not sure how much, though). If the fetus is far enough along in development to be considered a person (see previously linked thread), then the man could be charged for murder (in my opinion).

snowden
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Thank you for pointing out the obvious contradiction in being pro choice, you've really convinced me.
love, snowden

[/ QUOTE ] Cool. I had an original thought, and I'm glad it helped someone out. So this is my Man Kill Zygote question, which I wanted to throw out there to help some of those see obvious contradictions in their position.

For Kurn & Kipbond, I appreciate the replies. I can at least respect these positions by pro-choicers. Kurn, well if Rand (her books were definitely an influence in my thinking) said it, then it must be so [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. Kip, that's a hell of a long thread, and all I see an endless argument. If there's something conclusive, someone please reply, start bigtime thread, and/or PM me.

Personally, when I was very young I was Life, cuz I thought why kill a baby? Then I grew up and thought, it's just a bunch of cells, and a woman should be able to do what she wants with her body, so Choice. Us guys do have it easy after all. Now I'm older, and a little smarter, and I'm Life again, cuz of many commonly known reasons. However, I'm not that smart, so who knows in the future? I'm open to any solid arguments, but I haven't heard any that really hold up. I find it fascinating how really intelligent people can stand on completely opposite sides of issues like this and others like all that religion stuff DS is obsessed w/. Usually, one side assumes the other side is a bunch of morons. So, continue being pro-choice, morons [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

[imported_luckyme]

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which I wanted to throw out there to help some of those see obvious contradictions in their position.

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Actually, there isn't any contradiction in their position. I was going to write "the only appears to be as their position as it is expressed by you" but I think even that overstates the validity of your argument.

"pro-choice" is a label not a position. It derives from the approach necessary for a legal stance in the USofA, so it only touches on one localized aspect of the broader issue. It doesn't sum up the philosophical perspective of those whose views on personhood, rights, etc are different than the USofA religious right ( for example). You have to argue your case under the laws of the land that you're dealing with, so the only aspects of the issue that get dealt with are specific legal issues.

To frame the philosophical discussion in the narrow confines of the USofA legal system is a strawman argument to start with.

hope that helps, luckyme

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snowden
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Thank you for pointing out the obvious contradiction in being pro choice, you've really convinced me.
love, snowden

[/ QUOTE ] Cool. I had an original thought, and I'm glad it helped someone out.

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I think snowden was being sarcastic. It definitely was not an original thought... there are laws on the books concerning your very not-so-hypothetical scenario.

You say you have not heard a good pro-choice argument... I point you back to the thread I linked to. If you want, just read my posts. I make the argument: a fetus is not a person, because a person requires a functioning brain; therfore, abortion is not murder.