poker pro to trading

[djack]

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Bullshit. I've never seen a high school kid serving coffee at a firm like Skadden in any city and certainly not in any capacity that would give him the "occasional glance at an EFT."

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Wow, I can't believe you just called me a liar. That is outrageous. For what it's worth, I was a floating secretary for partners in the 5th largest Skadden office off and on for about 4 years. When I was new, I opened a few things that I shouldn't have, and I saw how much they made (it's actually pretty interesting the way the partners decide how much each partner gets).

It's amazing to me that you have made so many judgments about me based on a couple posts.

[johnfromvirginia]

Look, if you have really made a living playing poker for any length of time, then you are obviously intelligent. The inquiries and observations you have made about trading are not ridiculous, but your conclusions about the legal profession are. If you were really were a floater at Skadden, then nothing you saw there is a reasonable sample of anything outside of Skadden. It's a one of a kind firm in an also-ran profession full of dissatisfied also-ran lawyers. BTW, some of my friends from Georgetown are/were associates here at the New York office and last I heard, the partner track at Skadden was 10 or 11 years and about 1 out of every 10 new associates there makes partner. I bet it's easier to become a Navy SEAL. People go to work for Skadden so they can put it on their resume when they go somewhere else to try and make partner. They used to have a link on their website where former associates could go to keep in touch with each other because almost nobody who makes it through the front door makes it to the top floor. Just getting a job as an associate there is a major accomplishment. Making partner is not something anyone can reasonably assume they might accomplish--even at one of their smaller offices.

[djack]

I don't know why you have such incredulity for everything I say.

I'm pretty confident I could get hired at Skadden. I was pretty close to a few partners. Also, it's 8 years, not 10 or 11. Your 1 in 10 stat is pretty close though.

And yes, "Skadden alumni" do get an annual book with all Skadden alumni addresses. There are also occasional Skadden alumni events. Many of the other major firms do this as well.

Again, you just assumed I know nothing about the legal profession, when nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, I was assuming that I would make partner at a major firm, but I don't think that is at all unreasonable for me. And yes, I know the statistics.

Why you just decided to call me a liar repeatedly is something that I neither understand or respect.

[johnfromvirginia]

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Why you just decided to call me a liar repeatedly is something that I neither understand or respect.

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I think it was just once. The rest was just disagreement. I think it's hysterical that you take it so personally. I think it's even funnier that you think you know more about this subject than I because you were a floater off and on for four years. Kid, I AM A LAWYER AND MY BROTHER IS A TRADER. I have a JD and an LLM from top schools and I worked in M&A and corporate tax for one of the largest firms in the world for over seven years. My brother worked for a Wall Street firm for over 13 years. This started out as just me giving you what I thought was some good advice about something that I happen to know a little bit about, but it has evolved into you getting very offended because you don't like what I'm saying. How do you keep your cool at the card table?

Furthermore, I'll bet you every dollar you made at the card table last year that if you take everyone who made partner at Skadden this year and average out the number of years ago they graduated from law school, that number would be higher than 8 and would probably be closer to 10 and that number is increasing for the associates in later classes. The people who graduated with me in the class of 95 are just starting to make partner at the top firms. The only people who already made it went to small cities or smaller firms in big cities. My friends at Skadden now believe that the current first years will be associates for at least 10 years. There are always individual exceptions, but the fairways are getting longer all the time. But back to the original point (earlier in the thread) regardless of how long it takes, "hard work" will not make you a partner at Skadden. With very few exceptions, only the ability to bring in new clients will make you a partner there. So, unless your high school friends or your fraternity brothers are starting some companies and you can help take them public in 10 years, that door is shut to you and it always will be.

[LaggyLou]

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The top 1% of the lawyers in this country probably don't all make $1M/year. With very few exceptions, that kind of money only comes to two types of lawyers: (1) SUCCESSFUL personal injury lawyers and (2) white shoe firm partners who bring in the clients. The partners at the white shoe firms who do all the work, but don't bring in the clients typically don't even have an equity stake in the firm anymore.

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You must be joking. I assure you that partners at top firms average well more than $1mm. Partners at my firm average more than $2mm. And we don't do personal injury work.

[LaggyLou]

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Furthermore, most (but not all) lawyers would agree that Skadden is the VERY BEST LAW FIRM IN THE WORLD.

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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Now that is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Seriously, are you even a lawyer? Skadden is ok, but I'm quite certain that if I asked anyone in my hallway what the "best law firm in the world" is and said that they couldn't pick ourselves, not one of them would say "Skadden".

[johnfromvirginia]

First, I'll concede that a lot of people who really know what they're talking about would choose a firm like Cravath or Sullivan & Cromwell as the best of the best. Despite what I said in my posts, I would. But you have to admit that if you didn't go to all the right schools and you're a greedy little bastard who played poker for a few years after graduating from college, an aggressive monster like Skadden is probably going to be at the top of your list (as I think it would be for a lot of people who went to schools where Cravath doesn't do on-campus interviews). There are a lot of things at which Skadden may be the top dog--like M&A and the complex financial derivative instrument du jour. But like I said, a LOT of people do not consider Skadden to be a white shoe firm.

Second, the average comp of the top firms is typically published (although, I can't imagine why) and when I left the business just over a year ago, at the time there were 15 firms in New York City whose partners averaged over $1M/ year. Those firms had a total of 1,850 partners. See http://www.nylawyer.com/news/03/01/012703c.html Note that at two of those firms, the average comp was only $1M+ for equity partners. It was under $1M for all partners, but I won't nit pick.) Now, I think you would agree that the lawyers in New York are the highest paid in the United States, if not the world. Do you have any idea how many lawyers there are in this country? About one out of every 200 people! When I was in law school, there were more people in law school than there were lawyers currently in practice. The stats I cited above are just the New York partners in the top 15 firms in the city. But let's say for the sake of argument that every partner at a top 100 firm in the United States made $1M/year (a laughable assumption). They would probably constitute less than 1/10th of 1% of the lawyers in this country. So, how do the rest of the top 1% make their 7 figure incomes? You're out of your mind.

[djack]

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First, I'll concede that a lot of people who really know what they're talking about would choose a firm like Cravath or Sullivan & Cromwell as the best of the best. Despite what I said in my posts, I would.

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Uhh...Most would say Wachtell or Boies or another boutique before they would say those. Although those are huge firms comparable to Skadden.

John, you've repeatedly called me a liar, offered me advice where I didn't asked for it, and generally condescended to me.

To everyone else who has (and might in the future) contribute to this thread, I thank you very much. Energy trading isn't a field with alot of literature written about it, so anything has been at least somewhat helpful.

John, your advice isn't helpful.

[johnfromvirginia]

Of course my advice isn't helpful, I don't know what I'm talking about. BTW, Wachtell is a firm "like Cravath or Sully."

My advice about trading is a sort of "informed conjecture." I know a lot of traders, but I've never been a trader. My advice about law school can be summed up in one sentence: Don't go to law school unless you are absolutely certain that you want to be a lawyer for reasons that have little or nothing to do with money. If you do decide to go to law school, I hope you print out this thread, seal it in an envelope and open it after you've been in practice for about 2 years or so because if you're like 95% of the rest of us that went to law school, it'll be among the worst decisions you ever made even if you do really well.

[Poker blog]

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BTW, Wachtell is a firm "like Cravath or Sully."

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In terms of prestige, Wachtell is way better.

[PS. When arguing Skadden itra-politics, you should know
more Skadden partners or associates....I'm just saying. One or the other would be helpful to your argument. Especially since I've worked in 3 Skadden offices.]

Honestly though, I'm not interested in your opinions of law firms. I turned down UVALaw last year because I wasn't sure.

The only thing I'm interested in is knowledge and advice on how to get into energy trading. I think I have a few ins, but I'd love to hear about more.