Hated this, what should I have done (Stars 16 Turbo)

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
No matter how much I raise though, with two callers the size of the pot will be so big that I wish you good luck outplaying anyone postflop with superior postflop play. It will be more or less a question of putting it all in there or check/fold.

Lose less is totally irrelevant. I wanna make the play that on average wins me the most. Folding here would be the way to lose the least on this hand in the long run. Flawed thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, reraising less then folding or calling then folding will lose the least in this hand in the long run. if you have an edge postflop on your opponents [which is not incredibly hard in a $16] you don't need luck---they do. superior postflop play also includes check/folding in a situation where two villains called your huge reraise postflop and you face an extremely likely bet with two overcards on the flop. i'm looking to lose the least possible with hands like 10 10-Q Q at these levels, especially when i know my opponents calling ranges include so many combos with Aces and Kings. nothing flawed about that.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
Lose less is totally irrelevant. I wanna make the play that on average wins me the most.quote]

losing less is never irrelevant. if you're gonna make the play that on average wins you the most, you also wanna make the play that on average loses you the least. if you're not concerned with how much you lose as opposed to how much you win, you've got a big problem. tell me you see that.

[Melchiades]

This betting signals I have the best hand preflop by far. I don't care about taking an action that will lose me less, I have the best hand here, I'm gonna win a big pot. I care about taking the action that will be most +EV in the long run. Pushing here is clearly +EV. Reraising is most likely even more +EV. But this "losing less" nonsense is irrelevant. I'm only interested in the action that is most +EV. You argued against pushing preflop because it could lose me more than raise/fold. I don't see the point. Pushing is +EV.

[Melchiades]

One last try. The biggest reason reraising is more +EV is that it will get more money in the pot most of the time. Pushing scares people away. Pushing does not lose me more, it wins me less.

Pushing is bad because most of the time we only pick up the dead money. Not because once in a blue moon UTG+1 has AA/KK or that we get sucked out by AJ.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
One last try. The biggest reason reraising is more +EV is that it will get more money in the pot most of the time. Pushing scares people away. Pushing does not lose me more, it wins me less.

[/ QUOTE ]
In this situation, you're probably right. But if the blinds were smaller, you would be wrong.

Consider this hypothetical situation: Heads up with even 1 million chip stacks and 1/2 blinds. You are dealt QQ every hand. Pushing loses you money because he obviously won't call you without AA.

[Melchiades]

"Pushing loses you money because he obviously won't call you without AA."

Obviously. Here I will get called by worse hands way way more often than someone have been tricky with AA/KK though.

[splashpot]

All I'm saying is that pushing is usually wrong when the pot is small.

[curtains]

Your preflop raise was quite reasonable, however I would give up and just check fold this flop, as painful as it is.

[Melchiades]

Yeah I knew my postflop play was real bad even before posting it. Classic "can't let go of big pocket pair syndrome".

[adanthar]

The reraise is fine provided you thought you'd get a call. If you thought you'd get the pot there I'd have made it 400 instead.

Also, the rest of this thread between your post and curtains is, like, really really bad.

Also, pushing preflop does not only get called by kings. If it does in your games, stop playing them because you've managed to pick the toughest 16 dollar SNG's on the Internet and your game selection needs work.

Also, check/fold flop, etc. and I should stop typing out the word 'also' now so I will