can you get away from KK?

[turnipmonster]

because if I reraise those hands he'll fold and if I flat call those hands he'll be drawing to 2 outs and probably pay me off? you really do gain a lot in deception by calling.

this may be a game specific issue. in most of the games I play, people will fold anything less than KK to the 2nd raise.

when I used to play the NL on party poker, I would sometimes push with JJ against certain players.
--turnipmonster

[theBruiser500]

If you reraise preflop he can get away from QQ JJ TT AK and AQ, if you just call, he'll bet the flop for you and you can get a lot more of his money in.

David Slansky posted a similar hand only in a touranment context, it was a very instructive thread I highly recommend it. Just looked for it but couldn't find it, the thread is called "No Limit Hand 1" I'm pretty sure, starting by Slansky, if you find it please post a link here.

[sdplayerb]

Isn't JJ, QQ, AK, AQ great strength against a button raise 6 handed?

[sdplayerb]

A tournament situation is much different as you can't go back into your pocket and won't risk a 50/50 shot. He could be more willing to risk what he perceives to be a 50/50 shot since he just won a huge pot and is up $200.

I am starting to think I should have raised to $60-70 and if he pushes in, muck it.

[theBruiser500]

Yeah, maybe to the raise, but when you reraised to $60, I'd drop all of those hands without a second thought.

[sdplayerb]

That's fine though. I want you to pay to hit your set or an A.
If I call and he hits a set, i'm losing everything.
If not, probably not winning much more than another $30-40.

And I can see you getting away from something like JJ, but QQ many people will play for a lot.

I don't know though. I'm more of a NL tourney player, so I'm not use to slowplaying preflop.

[Chris Dow]

Flat call and trap him if an ace doesn't come because he will overplay his hand when you show the weakness of flat calling preflop. So what he turns up aces this time, typically that reraise preflop will be a lot less than AA and you will cause him to make huge mistakes postflop because if an ace comes you can get away but when he makes tptk or has queens he will lose it all to your concealed cowboys.

[sdplayerb]

Wow.
Well I asked the question, and the overwhelming response has been to flatcall since:
1. If he has AA, you are going broke pretty much anyway.
2. Go for the deception
3. If an A flops, can get away from it.

Fyi, I knew the pushin was a marginal play.
Also, I am more of a tourney player, so really not used to playing long with 100x the BB. At 40 on down, you are getting allin if you can with KK.

So, I think I will try this idea, if in a similar situation, particularly in position.

Thanks

SD

[Acesover8s]

SD,

An interesting hand. Let me start off and say, I would've gone broke here, and so would almost anyone else in this forum or at that game.

I find it interesting because a friend of mine folded KK in a live 1-2 PL game just the other day. The action went like this: UTG min-raised, UTG plays fairly straight-forward and likes to call down with strong hands that may or may not be good. A few callers and my pal raises the full pot out of the blind with KK. UTG sprigns to life and reraises pot. Hero calls (stacks were big enough to draw for a set) and check-folds face up on a 8 high flop. Opponent shows the rockets, table oohs and aahs.

Now, notice the difference between these two hands. First off, your hand is online giving you no physical clue to the strength of your opponents hand, I think many people overvalue this, but it is still a factor. Also, the opponent in my friends hand min-raised and then "three-raised" which screams AA or KK.

In your hand, as you stated your raise could be a steal, although the presence of a limper makes it much less likely. So, your opponent is marked with a hand of some strength, but does it have to be AA? Couldn't 88-QQ, or AK, AQ, AJ be played this way? What has your opponent showed when he re-raised preflop before?

How does your opponent play post flop? If he will make a large mistake postflop that he won't make preflop then thats when you should make the move.

Calling and playing the flop might be the best way, but you are letting him draw cheap to hit his set, or the flop might be scary enough that you will fold the best hand. He does have 'reverse position' with the right of first bluff.

On the other hand, raising to $60 and folding to a reraise sounds good. But what if he does move in? You still have Kings, and he could still be a retard who really likes his pair of jacks.

So, at the end of the day, who knows, I'm raising and calling a reraise, I'm losing my stack, but I'm not going to feel bad. How many times has the same situation happened to me when I've had AA and they've had KK AND QQ AND JJ AND AQ AND 46.

As Guy McSucker would say, if all else fails, don't forget to river your King.

[sdplayerb]

Thanks.

Yeah, I can get away from KK. But really only if he raises first from early position, then I reraise, and he pushes...or a third person involved.

I wasn't saying fold to his reraise (i know you aren't saying that).
I think an argument can be made for either making it 60-75, then fold if he pushes, or calling and playing it.
But just about impossible to have button and sb with AA vs KK (and I for one am not surprised in general when AA vs KK)

Yes, would have been a lot easier live. Maybe that is why I do a lot better playing NL live (well, was doing great online til the last 24 hours!)

I may also be doing better live since playing 25-60x BB.

SD