can you get away from KK?

sdplayerb · #1 06-10-2004, 02:51 PM

the $1-2 at UB, I've bought in for $200 and am at $196 or so. A person left so down toe 6 people, which i don't like.
Plus the person to my left just won a huge pot and is at over $400 and sounding kind of loose.

I am on the button with KK, cutoff limps for 2.
I make it 8.
The huge stack makes it $24.

Obviously I don't fold, not asking that.
But he could have a multitude of hands. What do you do?
Make it $60 and fold if he pushes in?

I pushed in. Hoping he'd put me on AK if he had QQ.
Of course he had AA, and i lost all my money. I did have a strange feeling he might.

How do you play it, and can you get away? If you make it 60 even, you are getting close to 2-1 on a call.

Thanks

SD

dr_venkman · #2 06-10-2004, 03:04 PM

Even AA isn't infallible, and people sometimes make stupid decisions and win anyway.

KK is a good hand to go all-in with. You got beat, but I wouldn't say it was a bad call. I've pushed it all with cowboys a number of times and only gotten beaten once... by rockets of course.

Conversely, just today on PP NL 25 I raised 6$ PF in with my rockets and UTG raised back at me. So I go all in. He calls. Stack sizes about the same. Board lays down and he shows 88.

So what happens, naturally.... spiked his set. I said thanks and if I ever want to go <font color="red"> bankrupt </font> I'll remember that move. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

turnipmonster · #3 06-10-2004, 03:37 PM

on the one hand, if you never push with anything but AA then everytime you push people will know what you have and fold.

on the other hand, say your opponent has AA. say you're also not sure that he does and ready to commit your money with KK. in a fundamental theorem of poker sense, how are you going to make your opponent make the biggest mistake possible? he wont' be making a mistake by reraising the rest of his money or calling your allin preflop.

--turnipmonster

sdplayerb · #4 06-10-2004, 03:57 PM

I have to disagree on point 1. On the internet people just don't see you enough to know that. And how many hands do you push allin for with 100x the BB? I'd say two or three.

And I think his biggest error would be by calling my allin with AK or QQ. I don't see his making a mistake with AA.

mullaney · #5 06-10-2004, 04:15 PM

If you are now heads up, you might just call the $24. Is this crazy? If you are ahead, you may gain from the deception, if you are behind, you may be able to get away from it after the flop.

If you are going to reraise, I think it's still too small of a pot to push. You are only going to get called by Aces. I think your idea of reraising to $60 is a potential plan, but if you are called, your decisions after the flop could get tricky.

sdplayerb · #6 06-10-2004, 04:33 PM

Yeah, i think it is not a good plan to call preflop. You are on the button, so it looks like a steal by you.
If he has AQ or AJ, you want him gone, or make him pay. Always seems like an A flops, so i want him to pay big.
If I called, I am going broke here as the flop was small.

If he calls my reraise to $60, i'm pushing in on the flop sinec $120 in there and I have $138 left. So I am risking all my money now just to get another $36 out of him. He is getting odds to flop a set here as well.

Any more and I am pot committed, I think. In a tourney I could get away from it. But getting more than 2-1 with KK especially when button vs SB in a short handed game.

turnipmonster · #7 06-10-2004, 05:43 PM

my point that if your opponent has AA, there is no chance of you getting him to make a mistake preflop. if you reraise, he will raise allin.

think of it in terms of a worst case scenario. obviously you are hoping your opponent doesn't have AA, but let's say for argument's sake that he does, and you are forced to commit your whole stack with KK. with these two facts in mind, what's the best way to play the hand?

in this scenario, the way to outplay your opponent is to call. your opponent *will not* make a mistake preflop, and after the flop he may make a bad fold on a later street, or you may hit your set and take his stack.

by flat calling with KK here, you are giving your opponent more chances to fold, and not letting him do what he wants to do, which is get all in before the flop.

--turnipmonster

sdplayerb · #8 06-10-2004, 05:52 PM

But that is only in the case he has AA.
How is flatcalling the best play if he has QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ, and the multitude of other hands he should be reraising with her against a button raise?

Morbo · #9 06-10-2004, 05:53 PM

If it always seems like an A flops, you might aswell fold preflop

theBruiser500 · #10 06-10-2004, 05:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If he calls my reraise to $60, i'm pushing in on the flop sinec $120 in there and I have $138 left. So I am risking all my money now just to get another $36 out of him. He is getting odds to flop a set here as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This looks like a very good reason to slow down in this hand and be more cautious. The way you played it if you have respect for your opponent you're gonna win $36 or $60 or whatever if he doesn't have aces, and you're going to lose your entire stack when he has aces or hits the flop.

Reraises preflop really aren't too common at $1/$2 NLHE online, they signifiy great strength.