Why am I either way ahead or way behind?

[gulebjorn]

It seems like this expression turns up in just about every hand evaluation thread, and it's kind of starting to annoy me. That's mainly because i don't see the value of it. It seems like you could say this about almost every hand you play out postflop.

Maybe people just use it too easily and in situations where it doesn't apply. When are you either way ahead or way behind? If you hit trips on a one suit flop? If you have an overpair on a 789 board? If you have a flush on a paired board? Help me out here.

So I don't understand when you could say this about any given situation, or when you couldn't say this. Suppose some of you guys could explain this to me. Then what? I mean, let's say i'm in a tough spot on the flop, heads up against a tricky player. And I say: "well, this is one of those times when i'm either way ahead or way behind." Where do i go from there? Does it mean: get out of the hand as fast as you can? Push allin and hope for the best? Make an information bet? Value bet your hand for what it's worth?

All comments are welcome, including the ones that say i'm stupid for questioning the obvious. Thx.

[BobboFitos]

Just about to sleep, so of course i check 2+2 beforehand... saw this:

A way ahead/behind would be like K 7 2 flop you have AK they have ???.

If they have a set you are waaaay behind and if they have an underpair/worse king/undercards they are 3 outs or fewer. So there you go.

The best way to handle it...
[ QUOTE ]
Where do i go from there? Does it mean: get out of the hand as fast as you can? Push allin and hope for the best? Make an information bet? Value bet your hand for what it's worth?

[/ QUOTE ]
Typically is to induce worse hands to bet (ie bluff at you) how do we do this? Well, check-call. If you bet the idea (although not always true) is that the worse hands will drop (so no value) but better hands (which have us waaaay behind) will either call or raise. But, if you check/call you keep in the good with the bad.

[fimbulwinter]

good question,

short answer:
very often you find yourself in situations where the board and action dictate that you or your opponent is a huge favorite to win the hand. specifically that the opponent or you has say <4 outs. this would likely happen on boards like A77, 444, K72 etc.

on the other hand, there are lots of boards where there can be a lot of strong contending hands for the pot. a board of J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] could have a lot of hands with lots of equity against a hand like AJo (say T9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and A4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])

the real thing here is what a call or raise feels like; in the former case it's spooky as your hand is likely well defined and you're more likely to be up against a big hand if the pot gets big, in the latter they will much more often be in the pot with hands you're at least temporarily beating.

long answer: play goot and you need not use the crutch of the above analysis.

fim

[Kaz The Original]

Let's look at two examples.

You have AA, and the board comes 987 rainbow. This is not a way ahead or way behind situation. Even a hand like 86o, is a COINFLIP against your all mighty aces here. Against something like 87, you are moderately behind, but not way behind. Against J10, you are of course, way behind.

However, if you have AA in LP and your opponent LRRs you, and the flop comes down J22, you are either way ahead (your opponent has KK, QQ, AK) or way behind (your opponent has JJ, 22, or a 2).

What does this mean?

Well, why do you not slowplay? Answer this yourself if you can. Why do we fast play sets?

The answer is, because they can get outdrawn easily. In a way ahead way behind situation, you are often against an opponent who has 2 outs, or you have 2 outs. In this case, you don't have to play it fast. You can call, call til the river, because you're opponent isn't going to draw out on you (if he is infact behind), so give out as little information as possible, while gaining information and having your opponent bloat the pot.

[mason55]

you just got 3 great replies from 3 of the most respected posters on this board. no one else should even bother replying to this thread.

[amoeba]

way ahead or way behind typically also goes hand in hand with the phrase " they'll only call you if they have you beat"

[DrGonzo]

Sorry for bumping this oldie, but it is a great thread and a very good read for anyone that has not read it yet.

I also would like something clarified here, if a knowledgeable person would be kind enough to answer;
Both BobbyFitos and Fimbulwinter here qualifies a WA/WB situation as a situation where you or your opponent have 3 outs or less. OK. They both give the flop K72 (rainbow), with you on AK, as an example.

Yes, if the opponent have a set you have < 3 outs. Yes, if the opponent has K with worse kicker he has only 3 outs. However, if the opponent have an underpair (like 87), he has 5 outs.

Not posting to nitpick. I want to become better at identifying WA/WB situations and I wonder if a situation where the opponent is not unlikely to have 5 outs is still considered WA/WB.

Thanks!

[xorbie]

5 outs is on the cusp, I would say. However, keep in mind we are looking at his range here. So if his range is 87, 67, 77, 22, KQ, KJ we are still in general either way ahead or way behind.

[DrGonzo]

Good answer!

I kind of had the same feeling; a bunch of the hands have 3 outs, which is clearly WA/WB and a bunch have 5 outs, which is not really WA/WB but close. In total, that makes the situation WA/WB.