All in before the flop. Didn't need to be.

[Seether]

You lost as an 8 to 1 favorite, dont whine. You made the right play and did all you could. What would a raise do? If they push do you fold the preflop nuts? Come on, be realistic here.

[schroedy]

See below. I would call, yes.

Just another bad beat story disguised as theory, I guess.

I still wonder whether I am pushing too often, even with an edge. Obviously AA is a bad example, but AT vs. KQs (I was BB, he was SB and flat called, I had about 8 BBs left) is another that put me out of a live tournament last night.

[floppy]

I ran into something similar last week (my KK lost to TT), and I think the answer is that to only way to avoid going out like this is to have the larger stack to begin with. (In my particular case, there were a bunch of limpers, I raise on the button, and TT decided to get clever, pushing everyone out but me, where I had about 1/2 his stack, but the same idea applies. If I had an equal stack to TT, he's less likely to try this)

So, instead of figuring out this particular hand, I'm thinking about the other hands where I could have made more/not lost as much.

[schroedy]

suppose we get to a flop? where I see a coordinated board. Then I can get away and still be in the tournament. The question has to do with the value of doubling up (or stealing the limp bets) versus the risk of breaking? I am not sure that the answer is as obvious as some want to make it, given that the value of each additional tournament chip is lower and lower as you accumulate chips.

[schroedy]

For some reason, I am happier calling the all in with AA or KK and busting, than pushing with these hands and busting.

That is not to make any theoretical point, but merely to confess an intuitive sensation. I feel like I must defend with the best hand, even against a larger stack, but I wonder if strategically, I should be being more careful about initiating confrontation with a larger stack.

I think David S. has something about this in his tournament book but I can't find it right now. (The line I am thinking about is something like, "If your opponent calls he hurts himself. Of course, he hurts you even more, but unless he is the sort of fellow that would cut off his nose to spite his face, he won't do it" [n.b. -- play some tournaments on Party, David].

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
suppose we get to a flop? where I see a coordinated board. Then I can get away and still be in the tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

or, you could push as a 4:1 favorite, get called and double up 80% of the time

[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure that the answer is as obvious as some want to make it, given that the value of each additional tournament chip is lower and lower as you accumulate chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

baaaaaaaad beeeeeaaaaaatttttt

[willie]

yeah you want to be all in there....

you're #1 in chips if you drag that pot.

and you're a huge favorite---what about this situation do you find unfavorable?

[TM1212]

WTF IS WRONG WITH EVERYONE HERE??? DOES NO ONE ACTUALLY READ THE POST BEFORE FLAMING SOMEONE? And what is up with everyone hoping on the bandwagon of the first poster, one person said its just a bad beat story do 8 others, that have nothing good to add, have to join in and say the same thing?

Clearly this hand was a bad beat, but schroedy wasn't crying about it, instead he had a very valid question.

Is there ever a time were you should fold as a favorite in a tournament. While i'm reading into his question a little, cause he really asked if he should want to get someone all in (or if there are situations were you might not want too), preflop with AA (which is a little ridiculous in this situation). I personally believe that there are certain situations were u don't!

Now in schroedy situation, which is a $30 party tourt, with 1,000 starting chips, clearly this question should never arise. There aren't enough blinds in front of anyone to justify such a theory. Any advantage in any hand you can get your chips in with especially an overpair vs an underpair you should take it.

But now what if were talking about a major circuit tourt. $10,000 buyin, and over 200 bb in front of you.
Now let also pretend your better then almost the entire field. Now you can make a case for folding to any allin preflop that would cost you a major portion of your stack, unless you can be certain you have your opponent dominated (and maybe even then).

Now lets say your playing on the major tourney circuit with tourtaments of at least 500 people. In your first 6 tournaments im going to deal u Aces first hand. Another very poor opponent will get 8's every time and go allin in front of you. All 6 times u call (of course right)... 5times u win and double up, 1 time you lose your buyin.

Has the extra 10,000 chips really increased your chance of winning the tournament by that much that it was worth risking elimination? This is at the very least worth a discussion! A tournament like this cant be won in the first day, but it can be lost!

You have 4,980,000 more chips to gain before you win the tourt, and a few hundred thousand more at least before you show any profit! Maybe schroedy question has some validity after all?

Open your minds!

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly this hand was a bad beat, but schroedy wasn't crying about it, instead he had a very valid question.

[/ QUOTE ]

not really

[ QUOTE ]
Is there ever a time were you should fold as a favorite in a tournament. While i'm reading into his question a little, cause he really asked if he should want to get someone all in (or if there are situations were you might not want too), preflop with AA (which is a little ridiculous in this situation). I personally believe that there are certain situations were u don't!

[/ QUOTE ]

okay...


[ QUOTE ]
But now what if were talking about a major circuit tourt. $10,000 buyin, and over 200 bb in front of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh this thing again. okay, stop playing poker now.

[TM1212]

Once again a post offering nothing WTF? Response Arguements, reasons why what i said isn't vaild! If you dont have the time to elaborate STFU!!!

This is a legitmate situation were stragedy will change, if you do not wish to discuss such a situation dont post!

And if i were so foolish and I no so little compared to you why would u want me to stop playing poker? Wouldnt u want to be at a table with me!

From your ignorance alone I can tell I would love to see you in a tourney at my table anytime.

I really call into question a large portion of this communities actual understanding of the varations of play between a cash game and a tourtment! Especially after how many people have simply brushed this post off.

In a tourt simply being a favorite doesn't mean you want to play for all your chips, especialy in the early stages!