Quick quiestion about SB-defense

[Peter_rus]

Well, say it's 50/100 or higher game. Everyone folded to button and man on a button, who stealing 100% of time and is average postflop (not lag) raised. You are in SB and you know BB is decent player, he spots that button is very aggressive and that you also know that and you try to adapt properly so he could cap with as little as AT,KQ or call your 3-bet with some worser hands he wants to see a flop.

What will be your line of play? What hands you'll 3-bet? What hands you will call?

[catlover]

I would say never call. If you are going to play, you should raise for three reasons:

(1) Your hand on average is better than the button's average hand.
(2) You want to put maximum pressure on the big blind to get out.
(3) By sometimes rasing and sometimes calling, you give away information about your hand. You want to avoid this, and can do so by always raising (or folding).

The question then becomes what do you raise with. I think your situation is pretty similar to the usual button stealing situation. When you steal on the button, you are raising against two random hands. You do not have a blind posted, but you have position. In your small blind situation, if the button is stealing 100% of the time, you are also raising against two random hands. You do not have position, but this is mitigated by the fact that you do have a blind posted. So whatever you would normally steal with, were you on the button, you should 3-bet here.

I think this is correct play on your part. Now if the big blind works out that you are doing this, he should start capping from the big blind with approximately the same hands that he would normally 3-bet from the small blind. That is, just as your situation is similar to a button steal situation, his situation is similar to a small bind defense. This is because the button, who is stealing 100% of the time, is basically like a "big blind". So it would be perfectly correct for him to cap with a hand like 66, or A9o, or 89s. (The last one is OK because, although it is weaker than your average hand, it is also stronger than the button's average hand.) And just as you should pursue a fold or 3-bet strategy to avoid giving away information, the big blind should fold or cap for the same reason.

The above presumes that the button really is stealing 100% of the time. If it's only 80%, you and the BB both need to tighten up.

[ QUOTE ]
I would say never call. If you are going to play, you should raise for three reasons:

(1) Your hand on average is better than the button's average hand.
(2) You want to put maximum pressure on the big blind to get out.
(3) By sometimes rasing and sometimes calling, you give away information about your hand. You want to avoid this, and can do so by always raising (or folding).

The question then becomes what do you raise with. I think your situation is pretty similar to the usual button stealing situation. When you steal on the button, you are raising against two random hands. You do not have a blind posted, but you have position. In your small blind situation, if the button is stealing 100% of the time, you are also raising against two random hands. You do not have position, but this is mitigated by the fact that you do have a blind posted. So whatever you would normally steal with, were you on the button, you should 3-bet here.

I think this is correct play on your part. Now if the big blind works out that you are doing this, he should start capping from the big blind with approximately the same hands that he would normally 3-bet from the small blind. That is, just as your situation is similar to a button steal situation, his situation is similar to a small bind defense. This is because the button, who is stealing 100% of the time, is basically like a "big blind". So it would be perfectly correct for him to cap with a hand like 66, or A9o, or 89s. (The last one is OK because, although it is weaker than your average hand, it is also stronger than the button's average hand.) And just as you should pursue a fold or 3-bet strategy to avoid giving away information, the big blind should fold or cap for the same reason.

The above presumes that the button really is stealing 100% of the time. If it's only 80%, you and the BB both need to tighten up.

[/ QUOTE ]


I do not think 89s is stronger than a random hand (could be mistaken).

I think raising with your top 50% of your hands or so in this situation could be right. It is certainly a very large % of hands despite BB's adaption.

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]
The question then becomes what do you raise with. I think your situation is pretty similar to the usual button stealing situation. When you steal on the button, you are raising against two random hands. You do not have a blind posted, but you have position. In your small blind situation, if the button is stealing 100% of the time, you are also raising against two random hands. You do not have position, but this is mitigated by the fact that you do have a blind posted. So whatever you would normally steal with, were you on the button, you should 3-bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting way of thought. Mucho thanks for input. Though i guess it's too weak to 3-bet here only with my button-steal hands cause i tend to believe position weigh a bit less against this player than 0.25bb/h so the reason i posted SB forces me to play more hands than my button steal range.

I'm a bit surprising most people hate calling SB. I call occasionally against too agressive stealer with hands like JTo or 89s especially if BB is decent. Calling shows some respect to decent BB until he start to cap too heavily. These hands has no SD-value but have high flopping abilities - more than 50% of time you will hit *something* and could proceed or execute some valuable semi-bluffing to burn some better *trash* (Q-high,K-high) hands of the button. Also decent BB could fold even if you just call.

[mterry]

[ QUOTE ]
You want to avoid this, and can do so by always raising (or folding).


[/ QUOTE ] or randomizing your decisions. I'd say if you've decided to play, then make it {.85, .15, 0} in favor of raising for all the reasons previously stated. How do people feel about doing this for all hands including premiums?

It might also depends on how good the BB is, but I'm not sure.

[imported_stealthcow]

i was really hoping that you'd have chimed in on stox's post on what hands you cc from a typical lp stealer in the sb. in general you've always been on the edge in terms of defending as many +ev hands as possible, and you bring a lot to this forum as a poster who deviates from the standard. i hope you can/will do the same for sb defense. maybe just formulate an idea of what hands you think are worth cc with and what defines the hands you 3bet and try it out.

one thing i think some people who are strongly against ever cold calling forget that even thought you're oop, often the action will go check check stealer bets, you raise, and now the bb is has to call 2 bets, which really defines his hand. but if it goes check check bet, and you call, again the bb is getting good odds. so you can have him being in the pot to work to your advantage.

stealthcow-

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not think 89s is stronger than a random hand (could be mistaken).

[/ QUOTE ]

You are, but only barely. 50.8% equity.