$10NL Another loss with JJ - bad play?

#1 10-15-2005, 04:52 AM

Kinda new here but I loose more money with JJ than any other hand. I've tried to slow play them, play them like a premium pair, I either end up dumping them or loosing with them. I'm considering just mucking them as soon as I pick them up.

Here is my last JJ disaster, how should I have played it?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (7 handed) converter

MP2 ($16.68)
CO ($31.50)
Hero ($11.15)
SB ($7)
BB ($45.94)
UTG ($10)
MP1 ($13.13)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.10, 1 fold, CO calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.4, 1 fold, BB calls $0.30, MP1 calls $0.30, CO calls $0.30.

Flop: ($1.65) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero bets $1.6, BB folds, MP1 folds, CO calls $1.60.

Turn: ($4.85) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $5, CO calls $5.

River: ($14.85) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $14.85

Results in white below: 
CO has Ad 4d (two pair, aces and twos).
Hero has Jd Jh (two pair, jacks and twos).
Outcome: CO wins $14.85. 

OK, I can't get this hand converter to work. On the river villain goes all-in and I call to burn off the rest of my chips [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] So the pot is actually around $22

#2 10-15-2005, 06:21 AM

Easy... Try to pick up the blinds pre flop... Depending on how tight/loose the game is, raise it anywhere from 5xBB to 20xBB... I'm not kidding about this... you might get someone stupid enough to call you in this type of game... If not, no big deal...

BlackRain · #3 10-15-2005, 06:27 AM

Villain just got lucky here. You played it well. The fact that he called a PSB on the turn with nothing but a gutshot and an overcard = 7 outs, is typical of the terrible play at this level.

I think there are two ways you could have played this turn differently however, which may have been better.

1) Shove. This puts villain to the test with his weak draw and forces him to make an even more incorrect call.

2) Bet half the pot on the turn. This allows you to get away from this hand when a scare card like an overcard or a club drops in the river. By betting the pot, as you did, I think you committed yourself to this pot.

I think line #2 is what I normally do here unless I have a very good read on the guy, then line #1.

BlackRain · #4 10-15-2005, 06:29 AM

Oh, and don't ever muck JJ PF unless you are re raised heavily. This hand needs to be raised for value even if 5 people call you. Play more for set value against that many opponents. But your PSB on that flop is standard.

#5 10-15-2005, 06:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain just got lucky here. You played it well. The fact that he called a PSB on the turn with nothing but a gutshot and an overcard = 7 outs, is typical of the terrible play at this level.

I think there are two ways you could have played this turn differently however, which may have been better.

1) Shove. This puts villain to the test with his weak draw and forces him to make an even more incorrect call.

2) Bet half the pot on the turn. This allows you to get away from this hand when a scare card like an overcard or a club drops in the river. By betting the pot, as you did, I think you committed yourself to this pot.

I think line #2 is what I normally do here unless I have a very good read on the guy, then line #1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the advice. I thought the pot bet would push out villain if he had no hand, I was wrong [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] and having done it I didn't feel like I could get away from the hand.

I thought for a while before calling his all-in as I was scared of the Ace. I put his all-in down to representing rather than having it. wrong again [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm bouncing between the $10NL and $25NL and I think what I did might have been OK at $25NL.

I don't mind getting out drawn like this as I understand it's part of poker and will happen. The advice for the turn play is what I was after, thanks

kitaristi0 · #6 10-15-2005, 07:26 AM

I raise more PF. With two limpers already I bump it to $0.60 at least, if not more.

#7 10-15-2005, 11:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Easy... Try to pick up the blinds pre flop... Depending on how tight/loose the game is, raise it anywhere from 5xBB to 20xBB... I'm not kidding about this... you might get someone stupid enough to call you in this type of game... If not, no big deal...

[/ QUOTE ]

Do not follow this advice. Raising to 20Xbb is absolutely ridiculous.

This is a bad beat post. You played the hand okay--till the river at least.

What is the question?

#8 10-15-2005, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy... Try to pick up the blinds pre flop... Depending on how tight/loose the game is, raise it anywhere from 5xBB to 20xBB... I'm not kidding about this... you might get someone stupid enough to call you in this type of game... If not, no big deal...

[/ QUOTE ]

Do not follow this advice. Raising to 20Xbb is absolutely ridiculous.

This is a bad beat post. You played the hand okay--till the river at least.

What is the question?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a bad beat post. Villain got lucky that is not the issue. My question was, did I play this hand in particular and JJ in general reasonably correctly.

So far I've had a couple of reasonable coments.

Whilst 20xBB is probably too much I'm thinking that I could have raised a little more before the flop as there were limpers.

I now, no longer like my PSB on the turn as it made it impossible for me to get away from the hand when the A hit.

I'm after any comments on this hand in particular, like the two above or playing JJ in general. Is it played better like a premium pair or better like a small pair that you might limp with and muck if the trips doesn't hit?

Your comment about 'till the river at least' suggests you think that I should have been able to let this go to villains all-in bet. I had it as representing the A rather than having it. Do you think that at $10NL I was 'thinking too much' and that at this micro level I gave too much credit to villains ability?

slydeni · #9 10-15-2005, 12:21 PM

yah JJ is hard for all of us.

I am thinking a coupla things.

1. It seems like a bit more than standard raise might be prudent at these micro levels...just cuz the point is to try to thin the field a bit, and yet get some action. At higher levels you 4x big blind + 1 for each caller is standard - but again here maybe more is needed to do the trick. I am feeling like $1.00 to $1.50 to get one caller or so.

Your flop bet is nice. He could be on club draw here. He could have a sloppy pair below yours. Maybe he is slow playing you.

Turn- ugly 2. Maybe he has the 2 here...not out of the question. Maybe he is still playing for the flush. INCIDENTALLY, what is your table image like??? And what does small blind think you may have- or is he thinking? I like the idea of putting a 1/2 size pot bet in here -- one to let you out on the river if it gets real ugly; and 2, if he check raises here (in the case he was slow playing something big and bad). Sortof a protection bet, that has a backdoor safety hatch.

BUT-- you bet the pot and your locked in. So yah I think yer call is fine in this case. You played the hand fine... these things happen. Good luck with future JJ hands.

I heard a good quote:

"Jacks...cant play them...cant fold them...cant beat them."

sly