raising preflop with 87s (been reading Izmet Fekali's website)

[Niediam]

Except that you are not playing in a HEFAP game (I assume).

[xxxxx]

You're the one that needs to get away from the hand when you flop middle pair bad kicker.

[Cumulonimbus]

HEFAP means Hold Em For Advanced Players. Yes I was playing limit Hold em. No, I wasn't playing against Advanced players. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
In Sklansky's HEPFAP, he talks about raising PF with mid suited-connectors. He says if he's in late position with a couple limpers, he's getting good odds to call, so he might as well raise to beef the pot up, along with other obvious benefits that come with raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was thinking. Obviously there will be times u have to get away from mid-pair, etc...for a good player I dont think this is too much of a problem, but the benefits that come with raising and when u hit the flop u are looking for, I think they outweigh the downsides of playing this aggressivly.

As to the pokerstove examples, while there may be A6o and such out there, with loose limpers I think the hands tend to be more towards the random side.

[Niediam]

What benefits are you referring to?

[gulebjorn]

From www.learn-texas-holdem.com:

[ QUOTE ]
What I will do when I am in late position, or even sometimes in early position, is to just double the size of the big blind or a little more -- just enough that everyone will still call. What this does is create larger pots so that if I do hit, each subsequent bet will be larger and I'll win more. You aren't committing yourself to the pot. I like to do this with rag hands, like 96s or 53s, small pocket pairs, etc. I build a pot knowing that many of the tighter players may have limped in with big hands in hopes to trap me. In turn I flip the bitch on them and flop something weird, punishing them for not raising preflop with their big pair or AK. In addition to increasing the pot size when you are in, this also paves the way for more action on your good hands. If people see you raising a lot preflop they will feel more comfortable when you raise a lot with a good hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's talking about NL. Don't know what to make of that either. Think his site has some useful stuff on it though, but i could be wrong. Don't know if you should be more or less inclined to do this in limit or NL.

To answer your question: i'll sometimes raise it in a headsup or 3-handed game, in position. But that's NL too. Was your question only ment for limit games?

[golFUR]

I love these hands. They are dangerous, sure, but they are dangerous both to the player and the opponent. Nonstandard hands get nonstandard results. Raise a huge pair preflop, bet big on the flop, take down a mediocre pot. Raise w/ a middle suited connector, flop two pair, get an overpair to pay you off, take down a huge pot.

How I play them - things to think about while playing them:

You need, first, to consider that winning one hand is a lot less important than winning several hands in a session. I won't play these in limit ring except when I'm doing my maniac thing shorthanded. There, I raise and jam just about anything, so that doesn't count. The reason I don't play these in limit ring is that I have to think about my image. I don't want people remembering that 89s I played two orbits ago and chasing down my Ks w/ a piece of cheese.

For basically the same reason, I play them only very rarely in NL ring. If someone raises big in early position I'll call behind with a medium suited connector if I feel we might be heads up or only three to the flop. If I can put them on a big pair, on an AK, and read the board properly, I can get their whole stack. That alone is reward enough for ruining my 'rock' image.

I play these most often in NL tournaments and SnGs because the image thing is less important and because there is a definable goal, an end in sight. In ring you either play till you like your roll and get up or play till your shift is over. In a tourn or SnG there is a definate number of chips you want and any way you get them is great. Given that, getting more chips in a single pot is better than getting a few chips in many pots.

These considerations, coupled with the image I try to create in tourns, means I play these hands a very certain way and for a very certain reason.

If I start out the tourn really tight, fold for a full two orbits, and then show down great big pairs for my first two pots - people will have a very certain image of me. The first couple of times I play a suited connector I might not even get to show it. People tend to want to see the flop with me, but not a lot more. The first time I show one of these hands down, to devastating effect, the entire table is thrown into a bit of shock. They thought they had me pegged this way, now they have to completely reconsider. At that point I become the most dangerous player at the table. At first I was winning every pot I played because I only played big pairs. Now it appears as if I win every pot I play...

This approach, is, of course, extremely read dependant. You MUST be able to accurately put your opponents on hands. The first time they see you show one of these hands down they are going to do one or both of two things - way overplay their big pockets to make sure you don't suck out with a dangerous pocket, and, slowplay everything hoping to catch you reaching with something. You must be able to figure out when and which they are doing.

Fortunately, single table SnGs require very few hands, a couple hundred at most. You'll get more than enough pairs and standard big hands to complement your infrequent magic hit with a weird hand. Image is less important because it is only used for a short period of time. As people drop out the table texture changes and your gear changes are expected, your image is supposed to be fluid.

In a tourn, same thing. You can set them up and set them up, build an image of a TAG, and then come out of nowhere for a huge score with a goofy hand. Three orbits later, your table is broke and you can do it all over again at another.

To play hands like these you have to forget all of the percentages. Forget using them for long term results in ring play. These hands pay huge, so use them where huge payoffs mean more.

[oreogod]

Well I email him and he response was as follows:

Say when 4 people limp and you are on button (or in blinds)... there
aren't many opportunities for this play, but when one presents itself,
it is a nice mix-it-up move with immediate profit. You can't be raising
with big cards only, ya know...


--also I believe his article is referring to Limit ring games unless Im mistaken. But I do like the tournament summary by the poster above, Im just starting to get back into those.

[KCFire105]

[ QUOTE ]
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 16.7922 % [ 00.16 00.00 ] { 8c7c }
Hand 2: 20.2924 % [ 00.20 00.00 ] { AA-TT, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 3: 27.8280 % [ 00.27 00.00 ] { AA-TT, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 4: 19.7252 % [ 00.20 00.00 ] { AA-22 }
Hand 5: 15.3621 % [ 00.14 00.01 ] { random }


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you using a web site to do these odds? Looking for a way to do this myself.

Thanks

[KCFire105]

[ QUOTE ]
You're the one that needs to get away from the hand when you flop middle pair bad kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have had many friends there were unable to get away from mid-suited connectors flopping two pair with a board like K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and turn a Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]