TPNK with a crowd...do i lead?

WalkAmongUs · #1 11-01-2005, 09:59 AM

This happens at one of the looser tables I was playing at. Table VPIP was right at 39%. Every one of the callers in the hand were the players responsible for the looseness. I think the lowest VPIP that called was ~38%. Of course they were all passive as well.

Whats my play on every street?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, Button folds.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (13.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

Obviously getting so many overcallers on the river, I was fairly sure I didn't have the best hand. But I was leading the whole way so I bet the river.

sean c · #2 11-01-2005, 10:05 AM

I don't like the pre flop raise but i would have lead out on the flop either way.

#3 11-01-2005, 10:12 AM

Preflop
I'm not sure I would have raised out of the sb with this. With the possible exception of BB, it won't force anyone out. It works great if you flop the flush draw. However, if you end up playing your hand for high card value, it has bloated the pot and given people better odds to draw to gutshots etc. I would raise A9s, and maybe A8s, but simply complete with less.

Postflop
The only other way to play it that I see offhand is to c-c,c-c,bet. On the flop and turn that gives you the opportunity to fold if it ever comes 2 back to you. On a table as passive as you describe, though, I'm not sure that's a big deal.

#4 11-01-2005, 10:23 AM

I really don't like the OOP preflop raise. You're playing almost strictly for suits, and given the read of the table, any limped ace with a bigger kicker is calling you down to the river. I'd rather check and make a decision based on the action on the flop.

Koss · #5 11-01-2005, 10:37 AM

What else can you really do here? You've built up quite the big pot, and I don't think you can fold the river. Checking the river will likely get it checked through the few times you do have the best hand and leaving you paying off the better hands that decide to bet. I think you pretty much have to bet this one

WalkAmongUs · #6 11-01-2005, 10:48 AM

The PF raise was marginal. I do like it though because I had a chance to get 4 very loose passive players to put an extra bet in the pot when I had a strong drawing hand. Being OOP take away from this slightly but I think the move was +EV.

If there were 1 or 2 tight players in the mix I probably would have passed on the raise. But 4 really loose-passives was too much to pass up.

WalkAmongUs · #7 11-01-2005, 10:52 AM

Obviously being OOP made the rest of the hand tough to play out. Against these players I'm at a loss as to whether the post-flop portion of this hand is +EV.

I want to say with 1 less player, the way I played the hand would be good. But with this size field I think its a very very very marginal situation. Probably would have been easier to simply pass instead of trying to squeeze out like a theoretical 20 cent profit from the hand.

lautzutao · #8 11-01-2005, 11:36 AM

The move would be EV if there was no rake. With it, your edge is so marginal OOP that I think a call is slightly better. On the button I'd raise this all day with this many limpers.

#9 11-01-2005, 01:08 PM

* grunch *

Preflop you should just call. A5 suited is a playable but speculative hand that gets much of it's preflop value from the flushes it makes. The slightly improved odds on the SB still don't make up for this kind of hand. You really need to be against competition that plays more than 50% of their hands before the potential holdings get diluted enough that you can even begin to think you are even slightly ahead of this many players. Don't forget that even tighter players (call them semi-loose) than what you are describing with VP$ in the over 25% range typically get in the over 20% range by playing ANY Ace and there are 8 out of 12 combinations of Ax that are ahead of your A5 so an Ace, without your particular flush draw on the flop isn't that red-hot.

Check the flop and be prepared to raise if someone bets. The pot is large enough that you want to try and knock out someone with Kx or even 6x in order to avoid the disaster of your Ace being good on the flop only to have someone catch a two pair or trips on the turn or river. Realistically you can't expect to knock out someone with an Ace (or with passive players a King for that matter) but try, try, try. You might even get a free card on the turn if you want it or a free card here which isn't that bad, either.

On the turn you didn't improve but probably neither did anyone else (with loose players someone could have 67) you have at best 5 outs to improve this hand and after poking around in PokerStove you have at best 19 or 20% pot equity (so a shade less than a 1:4 shot to either win unimproved or improved on the river). Do we go for the check/raise here as well?? You can't really fold here so the best line is probably go for a check/raise on the turn, again to knock out someone who might fear AK, AA, or KK.

Check the river and call one bet. Fold to a bet and a raise. You have about 10% equity in this pot so calling one bet is correct but two is not.

littlebu · #10 11-01-2005, 01:55 PM

I would limp in preflop. on the flop I think check-call. turn check/fold UI. Just about any other limped A most likely takes it. Is that weak thinking