AKo HU OOP against TAG

Sasnak · #1 07-24-2005, 11:52 AM

Villain is 11/8.5/3. His 3 bet puts him on a high pocket pair or AK/Js range.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 3-bets, 5 folds, Hero calls.

(Normally this is a cap here. Villain has seen me raise mid-pockets, KQ, etc. so I thought by only calling he'd come after me on the flop if I checked.) 

Flop: (7.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks. 

(Intent was to CR but it got checked through. Now I'm thinking he has a flush draw.) 

Turn: (3.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero folds.

(Villain knows me to be aggressive as well. Two of my A/K will put a 4 flush on the board. There is a straight draw which I doubt comes into play and the pot isn't very large plus I could be drawing dead to the flush by now.) 

Final Pot: 4.75 BB

I feel this was weak and by losing the CR on the flop I lost control of the hand. Turn was a scare card so I bailed out.

Would leading the Turn in this hand be considered a bad play?

~

UncleSalty · #2 07-24-2005, 12:36 PM

Nice post. Everyone should be including reads and thoughts on every street like this.

PF: Given your meta-game analysis, I think just calling the 3-bet for deception is g00t.

FLOP: C/R attempt is fine given your read, sucks that it got checked through.

TURN: I don't know why you think he's got a flush now. I would lead this turn and call a raise. He would have bet the flop with any made hand, so you are likely ahead. I never worry about flushes HU. Lead and fold to a raise.

McGahee · #3 07-24-2005, 12:44 PM

I don't understand how you can put him on a flush draw. A TAG with a 3 AF is betting this flop with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]'s in position ~100% of the time.
A turn bet is OK against some opponents, but I think there's too much of a chance this guy could sniff it out and raise you with nothing. I'd check/call the turn and check/fold the river UI. Most TAG's will (or at least they should) check behind on the river with AK UI.

kapw7 · #4 07-24-2005, 01:04 PM

My line HU is to bet the flop and if raised c-c the rest AND the river. I nearly always take AK to showdown against TAGs when heads-up in similar boards. Against a passive player I can easily let it go on the turn with these bad odds.

topspin · #5 07-24-2005, 01:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My line HU is to bet the flop and if raised c-c the rest AND the river. I nearly always take AK to showdown against TAGs when heads-up in similar boards. Against a passive player I can easily let it go on the turn with these bad odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you think villain gets frisky and 3-bets with AQ/AJ (which given just villain's numbers I think is rare, but perhaps OP had seen some hands shown down that justifies his read) this line confuses me. You split at best and lose at worst, so why the calldown?

If it's a potential blind steal situation (i.e. I open-raise in LP, someone 3-bets behind me) I like this line more since the range of 3-betting hands is wider. Here we're raising from UTG so we don't look like we're on a steal to anyone here.

kapw7 · #6 07-24-2005, 01:31 PM

Maybe I'm thinking more in terms of SH play as I haven't played full-ringfor some time. I think MP2 might be trying to isolate (since hero was very agressive) with a few more hands. That's why I would cap PF not to lose initiative. Try for deception with AA/KK but AKo is hard to play if you miss the flop.

And about my line: I've learned this from the "fishes". I bet and call down against TAGs and sometimes bet the river if they check. So they will know they don't have "fold equity" against me and thus value bet me and not bluff bet me in the future. Ah and the most important: AK has a decent showdown value on this board. So I won't lose money by being a "calling station".

kapw7 · #7 07-24-2005, 01:51 PM

And just to put some maths to support my line for value (Aaron please be nice with me).

AK (12 ways) wins us 5.75/2BB
AQs (3) and AJs (3) win us 5.75 BB
AA (3), KK (6), JJ (6), TT (6) lose us 2 BB

Now I haven't included the times we lose to a flush but also not the times we outdraw the pocket pairs. So a simple form of the EV equation for 45 hands we get
12*(5.75/2)+6*(5.75)+27*(-2)= +15BB or +0.33BB/hand

Sasnak · #8 07-24-2005, 03:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand how you can put him on a flush draw. A TAG with a 3 AF is betting this flop with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]'s in position ~100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking was the pot was only 3.75BB's on the Turn and villain had most likely put me on two big cards by now. Villain was a pretty decent player overall. When he was raisng earlier he generally had a hand.

I might have been wrong at the time, but I held no hearts and two of my "outs" A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] would have made a horrible 2nd best hand. All he needed was one heart in his hand and I'm a dog right?

So rather than overplaying an AKo which missed against a TAG villain, I decided to dump it on the 3rd heart. Small pot, missed flop, scare card and only an Ace high against TAG seemed very -EV at the time.

In hindsight I might have wanted to take a shot on the Turn to see what his repsonse would be.

Missing my CR hurt as I feel he would have released unless he was very strong. But what would your line have been if I bet out and was then raised?

~

McGahee · #9 07-24-2005, 07:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I might have been wrong at the time, but I held no hearts and two of my "outs" A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] would have made a horrible 2nd best hand. All he needed was one heart in his hand and I'm a dog right?
~

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, I don't have a problem with your turn line at all. The more I look at this the more I don't like this spot you're in with your AK.

I guess the crux of my criticism was that you can't put a TAG on a 4-flush when he checks the flop.

I really don't like your flop C/R attempt at all if you don't think he'll 3-bet PF with AQ or worse. This board is not scary enough to push him off something like TT or JJ, and you basically have to hope he has AK exactly for this play to work.

If I bet this flop and got raised I'd check/fold the turn UI because a good player isn't raising another good player here with AK very often. If you're him, would you want to raise an aggressive player and risk getting 3-bet with A high?

BluEsiNsOuL · #10 07-24-2005, 07:33 PM

I am so confused. Why didn't MP2 bet on the flop? I don't get it. If he was on a flush draw, given that he 3-bets preflop, he surely should've bet out. My guess is he just had Ace high, maybe the turn gave him a flush draw, and he is not that aggressive after all.