I'll listen this time

[1800GAMBLER]

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 7h, 7c.
3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks,

Flop: (5.66 SB) 5h, 6h, Kh (5 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, MP2 folds, Hero raises, CO folds, BB folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.83 BB) Ah (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets.

My flop raise is to knock out 8h - Jh, maybe get last position and maybe take a free card on the turn if i need. I also have a nice shot at being ahead at the moment.

However, the flipside to that is the pot is so small i don't really have much motivation to be aggressive here.

The turn i don't think is clear cut. Given the ace of hearts falling it's unlikely he's on a draw and that card just made many ways in which he is behind. While my hand, if ahead, can't be beaten by any river cards. So if i check i may induce a call on the river, while i may also be missing value if i check now?

Side question, would the Th falling make you more or less likely to check the turn?

Thanks.

[MarkD]

I had a hand very similar to this that I have been meaning to post so I am quite curious as to the responses here.

I currently think that you should check the turn which I think accomplishes two things:

1) It greatly increases your likelihood of collecting 1BB the times that you are ahead. I would guestimate that you average 0.9BB's when you are ahead on the turn and check. I would guestimate that you average 0.5BB's the times that you are ahead and bet the turn.

The times that you are ahead on the turn and bet you will usually collect 2BB's but I think that you get played with a very low percentage of the time (less than 25% in my estimate).

2) It saves you money when you are behind. When you are behind you will usually get check raised, or will certainly get called on both the turn and river so I think you lose 2-3BB's in this situation (you bet the turn AND you are behind). So, by checking the turn you save a minimum of 1BB.

ps. your specific hand is different than mine (which I have been meaning to post) since in your hand both the A and K of trump our out so it is less likely that you are beat.

[steveyz]

I'll usually check the turn here unless I can safely fold to a check-raise.

[Kevin J]

6 years ago when I first started playing poker I remember an old-timer saying, "I don't understand the way you guys today play poker". He didn't understand the semi-bluffs bets or raises he saw us new guys making. His motto was that if he hit the flop, he bet. If he missed, he'd be done. He wasn't about to get involved in marginal situations. I instinctively knew that while he played a very solid game, he'd never be able to beat the tougher higher limit games. I myself surpassed him rather quickly.

Now I read the posts on here about online play and I feel somewhat just like that old-timer. What on earth does a pair of sevens have to do with a K65 all heart flop, in a 5-way pot? Ok.. It has a LITTLE to do with this flop in that you have 2nd pair, a very minor heart draw, and backdoor str8 chances. But do you REALLY need to get involved here in order to crush these online games? There easily could be a king, bigger pocket pair, and/or bigger heart out there. In addition, it could get re-raised behind you by someone who may or may not have a pair of sevens beat.

I am not in any way demeaning your play. In fact, I'm starting to think that maybe the online 15 game plays too tough for me, precisely because of these types of plays with 77. I'd certainly fold up to the Jh here. I'd also likely fold a weak king unless I see too many of these types of plays from you. So I guess it's a good play (against weakies like me), and why I need a microscpose to look at my online win rate. Actually, this is a pretty tame example. I see much more severe marginal raises online.

[mike l.]

this post by kevin greatly sums up my online experience. every time i make this play here w/ the 77 it comes back capped to me and im up against a set of 6s and QTs for the flopped flush. every single time.

[SA125]

I guess I'm too tight because I think this is overplaying a pair of 7's here. But I see plays by dominated small-mid pairs coldcalling EP raises from KK, QQ & JJ and win h/u all the time online so I guess I could be wrong about this type of play here too.

[sherbert]

OK, my take - and I'd like to hear from those who disagree: it makes absolutely no difference as to what you do. Bet the turn for value; check to induce a (possible) bluff - or check fold the river (player dependent). Either way, it is 50-50. Don't forget some players will fold if you bet the turn, reducing any positive ev where you are ahead. It's a bit like the river arriving early - you will only be called by hands that beat you. Will a 6h or a 5h call here?

As a default play if he checks I'd be inclined to bet the turn for value but it's incredibly close, I suspect your ev either way is tiny. The only difference I can see is how it might effect plays later in the session.

[Kevin J]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm too tight because I think this is overplaying a pair of 7's here. But I see plays by dominated small-mid pairs coldcalling EP raises from KK, QQ & JJ and win h/u all the time online so I guess I could be wrong about this type of play here too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if you're talking about pre-flop or after the flop. Pre-flop, I can understand taking the worst of it with pocket pairs a little more often than I would in a live game. These online games are SO aggressive that you easily make up the EV after the flop when you hit your set.

It's these AFTER-THE-FLOP plays I don't understand. I recall another post where elysium advises to raise a pair of sevens (with a 7-high flush draw) into two overcards as a matter of routine. The only question was whether to bet the turn (flush card) for value or not.

There is no question that the majority of the $$ is made AFTER the flop in this game. I see opponents making what appear to be significant pre-flop mistakes, yet I am not getting enough of their money because they are somehow making up for it against me after-the-flop, even though it also appears to me that they are making significant mistakes here as well. I'm pulling my hair out.. I can't figure out where all the money from these mistakes is going. All I know is that only a small fraction is going into my account (not enough), and I can only assume that's because I am not playing well enough after-the-flop.

[mike l.]

"Will a 6h or a 5h call here?"

if they called the flop yes they will 100% of the time. the question is how often does his opponent have a worse flush or another payoff hand vs. the times he has a better hand. the play is to check the turn and either call or bet the river and it's not close. this is not a coin flip doesnt matter sort of turn situation at all.

[felson]

[ QUOTE ]
Will a 6h or a 5h call here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Those cards are on the board. GAMBLER needs a 4h/3h/2h or non-flush to call.