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  #11  
Old 12-27-2005, 03:17 AM
hexag1 hexag1 is offline
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Default Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.

[ QUOTE ]

4. Calling stations negate the value of position.


[/ QUOTE ]

quite the opposite. the value of position is magnified when your [out of position] opponent is a calling station.
in a heads up pot for example:
when you are in position against a calling station, you know what he has done and what he will most likely do. you can bet with the best of it and get paid off, or you can check behind with drawing hands and get free cards. or you can check behind on the turn or river when you think he has drawn out on you. when you have position in holdem, omaha, or stud, your calling station opponent will often give you very valuable free cards on key later streets. on these streets the edge that your hand has over his is increased [because there are less cards/streets to come] and the betting limits are increased, so you can save more when youre behind, and win more when youre ahead.
compare this when youre against a tricky/aggressive player [the opposite of the calliin' station] he checks, you bet in position, and... you dont know what hes going to do, he might checkraise with a draw, or a better hand. he might even just call with a hand that youre drawing dead to.
in short, position kiks azzz.
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  #12  
Old 12-27-2005, 03:46 PM
pzhon pzhon is offline
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Default Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.

[ QUOTE ]
What I am having problems with is that if we have 3 opponents with each having 22, 33, 44 and I have KK then they have more outs to improve than I do. Any 2, 3, or 4 trips up and beats us if we do not improve.

[/ QUOTE ]
AA is improved by fewer cards than 32o. AA is a much better hand. Don't count outs for the hand that is ahead.

KK wins 55.6% hot-and-cold against 44, 33, and 22, which means every $1 put in preflop returns $2.23, for a $1.23 profit. If you were only up against 44 and 33, every dollar would return $2.03. These are obviously better than being heads up, where every dollar would return less than $2; against 44 the actual value is $1.61. So, even if you knew your opponents had distinct low pocket pairs, you would generally 3 callers instead of 2, and 2 callers instead of 1. You are happier to see each additional call.

This assumes the blinds and the implied odds are negligible and they don't bluff you off your hand when an ace hits.

What about on later streets? Let us ignore the case that someone has a set already or has more than 2 outs. Suppose the players with 44, 33, and 22 put in 3 small bets preflop and one small bet on the flop. You are out of position and bet out. If someone rivers a set, you will pay off 2 bets on the river since you don't notice they never bluff. If no one rivers a set, you'll be called but not overcalled. How many callers do you want in this situation?

The pot contains 8 big bets. If you take down the pot, that is worth 8 BB.

If you get 1 caller, you gain 10 BB 38/40 of the time, and lose 3 BB 2/40. That is worth 9.35 BB.

If you get 2 callers, you gain 11 BB 36/40 of the time, and lose 3 BB 4/40. That is worth 9.60 BB.

If you get 3 callers, you gain 12 BB 34/40 of the time, and lose 3 BB 6/40. That is worth 9.75 BB.

If someone wanted to hop in with an unimproved 55 at that point without matching the bets on earlier streets, you should let them (9.80 BB).

There is some schooling effect. You aren't gaining as much as they are losing by making the overcall, since the overcall helps the players who already called. However, this effect is not large enough that you would be better off if they folded. If you like money, you want as many of them to call as possible.
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  #13  
Old 12-27-2005, 03:48 PM
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Default Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you are not aware of it during playing, but when you have position you gather more information before conducting your action. Information is valuable in poker, since it improves the quality of your decisions (it probably already does for you to).

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True, information is one of the things u gain from possition. However... for the information to be worth anything, your opponents must understand what their hand is worth themself. And THIS is very often not the case for many players at 0.5/1. But the little information u get is better than none...
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  #14  
Old 12-27-2005, 04:15 PM
AlanBostick AlanBostick is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: California
Posts: 127
Default Re: Position, Is it REALLY that important in some games.

[ QUOTE ]

Yes this is my understanding as well. I love it when someone stays in with 22 and I have a higher pair of a draw. I want to see a couple of people in the pot with 22, 33, 44 etc. What I am having problems with is that if we have 3 opponents with each having 22, 33, 44 and I have KK then they have more outs to improve than I do. Any 2, 3, or 4 trips up and beats us if we do not improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing something. When you have KK and are up against three opponents holding 22, 33, and 44, they collectively have nine outs to beat you, AND YOU HAVE ALL THE REST OF THE CARDS IN THE DECK. Before the flop you've got 56% of the equity in a four-way pot. Your overlay is huge.
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