AKo LP, bet & raise in front on Ks/3s/4d flop

[ellipse_87]

In my 4 or 5 orbits, I had seen SB quickly lay down an apparent overpair in good position when a second Q fell on the turn, and UTG call and check the entire way with a flopped 2-pair to win a pot. I concluded one could be bullied and the other didn't know what he was doing.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button folds, SB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (13 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (23 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, SB folds.

Final Pot: 27 BB

Given my read, what should I have done on the turn and river w UTG's puzzling stop-n-go? I had intended to call the cap on the flop and fold the turn if UI.

And (different question) if the players were unknown, is the default move on the flop a laydown? Two are betting into me after I raised PF; there's a flush draw with a crowded field; and the flopped 3s/4d, along w UTG's early PF position, strongly indicates that if UTG has a made hand, it's a set, not 2 pair. On the other hand, the flush draw dirties only one of my 5 outs; I have a backdoor straight draw; and UTG+1 (who played Kc2c) shows that maybe 2-pair can't be so easily discounted at .25/.50.

As I'm writing this, I'm leaning toward the conclusion that one should three-bet to see if UTG has a made hand or is just cleaning up his outs. But that can get kind of expensive at .25/.50 because in a lot of hands, like in this one, a raise won't extract accurate information from the raiser.

Thanks for your feedback.

[tiltaholic]

Hi-
I'd call down from the turn on.

When a passive player (your read) starts getting aggressive, he will usually have what he is representing. So when he continues to bet on the turn, he usually isn't bluffing. But the pot is large, and I'd call it down.

[ QUOTE ]
But that can get kind of expensive at .25/.50 because in a lot of hands, like in this one, a raise won't extract accurate information from the raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

in general, don't 3-bet for information in these games. because, as you point out, it doesn't really work.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
When a passive player (your read) starts getting aggressive, he will usually have what he is representing. So when he continues to bet on the turn, he usually isn't bluffing. But the pot is large, and I'd call it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you think he's "representing"?

[MrWookie47]

UTG's thought process:

Preflop:
No thoughts. Just call.

Flop:
Derf. Me have top pair! Bet! Raise? Call.

Turn:
Derf. Me have top pair! Bet! Raise? Call.

River:
Derf. Me have top pair! Bet!

Showdown:
What's a kicker?

I like how you played it. He might actually have 2 pair when he bets the river again, so calling is good.

[@bsolute_luck]

my thoughts exactly

[Fantam]

Reading this hand, I notice that there seems to be even more cold-calling raises and loose players at this limit than there are at Party .50/1.00.

With the players being this loose, I would prefer not to lay down TPTK on the flop. I think your 3-bet to try to thin out the field was a good idea also.

When UTG (previously passive with 2 pair) is still betting out on the turn, I agree that it does look like he may have a set.

So I think that I would have called down from the turn, in case I had the best hand as the pot was big with all the callers.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When a passive player (your read) starts getting aggressive, he will usually have what he is representing. So when he continues to bet on the turn, he usually isn't bluffing. But the pot is large, and I'd call it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you think he's "representing"?

[/ QUOTE ]

perhaps recently i've gone into a weak little hole...
however, reads do have meaning...and if the read is such that he will check and call with 2 pair (ie. passive) then the betting pattern is suspicious. so now he is blindly betting because he has top pair and doesn't care about his kicker? don't the morans always put a pf raiser on AK?

he's raising the flop into a pf raiser, then leading again on the turn after being 3 bet.

i know we have TPTK and AK is pretty...but we also say, "bet until shown resistence..." I think we have been shown resistence by a passive player.

now, if the read is that he's a complete idiot, then i like the turn raise. i had interpretted the OP's description more along the lines of: "he is passive" as opposed to "he's blind".

[flyangler]

:grunching:
I think you played every street well.
Good hand.
-flyangler-