Oh the shame....

[Eeegah]

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Does anyone fold pre-flop or do the cold-callers pad this pot enough to make it a worthwhile call?

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i haven't read the rest of the responses yet, but no way in hell do I fold here. In fact I woulda capped it. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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Why are you capping this?

[benkath1]

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Does anyone fold pre-flop or do the cold-callers pad this pot enough to make it a worthwhile call?

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i haven't read the rest of the responses yet, but no way in hell do I fold here. In fact I woulda capped it. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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Why are you capping this?

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Yeah, I'm interested in this too. I like EEgahs line about smooth calling to find out how much UTG+1 really likes his hand. I don't mind playing this in a capped pot, but If someone else is doing the capping, I've got more info on his hand than he has on mine.

[Jefzter]

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If we're continuing though I think it's a call, because I really want to know just how much UTG+1 likes his hand.

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That and the pot is so big now that a fold is a mistake so I want a show down for as cheap as possible.

[Eeegah]

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That and the pot is so big now that a fold is a mistake so I want a show down for as cheap as possible.

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The pot is not too big to fold. We may be paying 2 bets to win 15, or 3 bets to win somewhat more than 15, we don't know. We can get some idea of what UTG+1 has by smooth calling, but not so much SB, and that's very read dependent. Is he concerned enough with position to not want to 3-bet weaker hands? Does he not care about position and is 3-betting with the small discount? It's not at all unlikely that we are facing a pocket pair right now or possibly dominated by AK and will have some catching up to do--and even with a smooth call we won't know if we're good until showdown unless we wind up with two pair or higher.

Folks are saying that this is an easy call or raise, and it's not. If we continue we're often going to be facing some tough and potentially expensive decisions postflop, and if I'm not mistaken even SSHE advises a muck here. I'm not saying that I'm always letting this go here, but continuing at this point is not necessarily a good thing.

Additionally, what on earth are you talking about a cheap showdown for? We know virtually nothing about how this hand is going to play out. We might be stuck in a raising war between KK and AA. We might find ourselves with a K high flop and wondering WTF to do. Or we might flop a flush and get ourselves some pay. It is far, far too early to be thinking about showdown when you've only seen two cards of your hand.

[benkath1]

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Folks are saying that this is an easy call or raise, and it's not. If we continue we're often going to be facing some tough and potentially expensive decisions postflop, and if I'm not mistaken even SSHE advises a muck here. I'm not saying that I'm always letting this go here, but continuing at this point is not necessarily a good thing.


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I'm glad this hand isn't an easy play for the most of us. Had it been off suit, I'da dropped it hard. But with it being suited, I didn't think folding was correct, and I didn't think raising was correct, so I called. I think that was right. Finding out how much UTG+2 liked his hand was not on my mind, but it will be from now on. Very good point.

When I called, I obviously was looking for spades, what I got was a gutshot that could likely be a chop. I hit my hand on the turn and got check raised, so I guess my question is, how bout the river call? Is it worth it? I think I could be up against another AQ, but it could be JJ-AA too. Anyway, that's all read dependent so I guess it doesn't matter. Ed says call, you have top pair for heavens sake, so I call.

[Eeegah]

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I'm glad this hand isn't an easy play for the most of us. Had it been off suit, I'da dropped it hard. But with it being suited, I didn't think folding was correct, and I didn't think raising was correct, so I called. I think that was right. Finding out how much UTG+2 liked his hand was not on my mind, but it will be from now on. Very good point.

When I called, I obviously was looking for spades, what I got was a gutshot that could likely be a chop. I hit my hand on the turn and got check raised, so I guess my question is, how bout the river call? Is it worth it? I think I could be up against another AQ, but it could be JJ-AA too. Anyway, that's all read dependent so I guess it doesn't matter. Ed says call, you have top pair for heavens sake, so I call.

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The thing that worries me is that SB saw an early position raise saying "hay my hand is pretty good," then saw two callers saying "eh I might be able to outdraw you or hold up, I dunno," and is now saying "screw you all, I'm going to stomp you." He's 3-betting into four players plus yourself and is just screaming that he has a hand. The fact that he's pretty tight narrows it further--Probably AA-TT, AK and AQ at best.

As for the river call...I'm going to get flamed to hell and back for this but really...what is this guy holding that we could possibly beat? AK doesn't have much business 3-betting the flop, much less checkraising the turn. AQ even moreso on the flop. TT would be just silly at this point, so whatever we're hoping for him to hold would be severely overplayed. Sure, I'd call for sanity's sake, but I think we're getting money out of this pretty close to 0% of the time. It's fairly obvious to me he has AA, KK or QQ; which one was it?

[2+2 wannabe]

I think preflop blows - your read says both are TAGs and you cold-call with AQs? You're better off with JTs here, even T9s. Just fold and find a better spot. I can't see this being +EV.

I really think calling two cold on the flop with all your outs dirty (except backdoor flush draw which might become dirty to full house) - your straight will be chopped almost certainly, and A and Q cards are very likely no good. Especially after a bet/3-bet by SB.

Given this turn card, I'd probably bet it - particularly with SB checking it. If he check-raises (or if MP3 raises), I might be done with the hand.

[trainslayer]

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Does anyone fold pre-flop or do the cold-callers pad this pot enough to make it a worthwhile call?

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i haven't read the rest of the responses yet, but no way in hell do I fold here. In fact I woulda capped it. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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Why are you capping this?

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Yeah, I'm interested in this too. I like EEgahs line about smooth calling to find out how much UTG+1 really likes his hand. I don't mind playing this in a capped pot, but If someone else is doing the capping, I've got more info on his hand than he has on mine.

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in all honesty, because i'm an idiot who likes to fly by the seat of my pants without thinking through what I'm doing. Thus the ... [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

However, I've been playing 6-max exclusively for about a month and I wasn't really thinking about the fact that this was full.

And I'm not sure that the smooth call accomplishes the task of telling us how much UTG1 likes his hand. You ever see someone raise AA, KK, AKs or some other potential monster and then just call a reraise and THEN start the war on the flop or even the turn? I have and everytime I see that smooth call now bells go off. Did he just get a bucket of cold water in his lap or is he fixin' ta hit we w/the fire hose when I bet into him. AQs IS a potential monster preflop and I just ain't inclined to slow down preflop.

I've been doing a little more studying and a little less playing here lately. This topic just went on the list of things to study.

[Jaran]

The way I play this hand: Fold pf (tight raiser and tight 3better...I'm out {gap concept and all that rot [I wonder how many paranthetical thought I can make...]}). If I called, I wanna fold when it is two back to me on the flop, but I guess the odds say call. I absolutely hate that turn card. I'm checking and calling if it's one back to me and folding to a SB c/r. If I had bet it, I think I'm still done with the c/r. I'm not calling on the river.

-Jaran

[Jefzter]

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Additionally, what on earth are you talking about a cheap showdown for? We know virtually nothing about how this hand is going to play out. We might be stuck in a raising war between KK and AA. We might find ourselves with a K high flop and wondering WTF to do. Or we might flop a flush and get ourselves some pay. It is far, far too early to be thinking about showdown when you've only seen two cards of your hand.

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I had already seen that he had called SB's raise on the river.

Edit... cuz I suk at speelling