Any thoughts on my line?

[ChrisW]

Very loose/passive 10/20 game; I haven't been there long enough to assess the individual personalities.

I pick up QQ utg and raise utg. Two MP players cold call, LP reraises, both blinds call. WHAT NOW?

I just called. It seemed that the passive reraiser probably had AKs or AA-KK, maybe AKo, and an outside chance of JJ, so he will be a decent bit ahead of me on average. Plus, by not reraising, I might make it easier to get in a checkraise on the flop. OTOH, I'd like to charge the callers more bets, since I likely have them crushed.

The flop came Q 8 5 rainbow. 7.5 big bets in the pot. Both blinds check to me. WHAT NOW?

I bet. I thought there was an excellent chance that the preflop reraiser would raise, and I could make it 3 bets. If not, it's not the end of the world if everyone calls along; I do have a pretty big hand, and some callers may be drawing almost completely dead.

Whether I was right in theory or not, it worked in practice, as the two limpers called, LP raised, the blinds folded, and I reraised. The limpers called again, and LP called.

The turn brought an offsuit 4, making the board Q 8 5 4. 13.5 big bets in the pot. WHAT NOW?

I checked. I wasn't too worried about 76, but I was somewhat worried about JT, J9, or T9, as loose players might easily call two bets cold preflop with those hands if suited. The pot was now so big that those holdings would have the odds to call a turn bet even with a decent chance of a raise behind them. It seemed like the preflop raiser, having raised three players on the flop, was likely to have KK or AA. If everyone checked to him, he would bet, and I could raise, driving out the gutshots. Even if my ideal scenario didn't pan out, perhaps the free river would allow someone to make a second best hand, or perhaps I'd get called down on suspicion.

Unfortunately, all checked. The turn brought a 6, making the board Q 8 6 5 4. WHAT NOW?

I checked. In retrospect, I think this was a mistake. There is too much chance of getting paid off by JJ-99 to check here. My thinking at the time was: if someone has a set, they'll probably bet it, and I avoid getting raised by a straight. One MP player bet, and LP called. I called and lost to 77 for the rivered straight.

[highlife]

getting a check raise in on the turn after you three bet the flop would be pretty rare in a "loose-passive" game. you should have bet the turn and the river.

[Manzanita]

Chris,

After you 3-bet the flop I think that you must bet right out on the turn. The exception would be when LP (the 3-bettor preflop) is very aggressive, in which case I like going for a check-raise. But you describe LP as passive and frankly I'm not surprised that the turn got checked around.

I think that a better sequence in order to pressure a weaker hand out of the pot would have been to bet the flop (as you did) but then just call when LP raises. Now you are in position to check-raise the turn, forcing the limpers to call two big bets cold (with the possibility of having to call even more bets if LP chooses to 3-bet).

-- Manzanita

[elysium]

hi chris

you shouldn't be in this game unless you can afford to lose a lot of money. unfortunately chris, you're a fish...in the good sense. nothing wrong with being a fish. we were all fish at some point in time. the real problem here though is that you can't swim. and there's nothing wrong with that either.....i don't think. a wag would be nice. and no, the current won't help you in this spot.

i'm going to take a wild guess and say you're down 20 grand. is that about right? good. that's a healthy amount to start with as we strive to keep you out of the 100 thousand dollar club. you must stop whatever you are doing and read hfap and top. nothing fancy, just a basic read through. afterward, you will attain a reasonble level of oceanic equilibrium, and may even sprout leg and nostril nodules for your landlocked pilgrimage as you acclimatize to the rest of the world around you, and thrust out of the water.

we've all had to go through the prepubescent nub thing chris. you are merely a fish. it is non-contagious.

[onegymrat]

Hi Chris,

Your thinking is right on with this hand. However, being it is a loose-passive game, AND LP did not 4-bet your reraise (which reduces his chance of betting when checked to), the correct thing to do on the turn was to bet. You would have lost the hand regardless (77 would have called), but I feel that you misplayed the turn.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I pick up QQ utg and raise utg. Two MP players cold call, LP reraises, both blinds call. WHAT NOW?


[/ QUOTE ]

What now? Slap the four bizzle right back in his face. Bunky style. Though if you are on the weak tight side, Just calling may be okay.

[ QUOTE ]
The flop came Q 8 5 rainbow. 7.5 big bets in the pot. Both blinds check to me. WHAT NOW?


[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, bet. Why? Because betting the nuts is just so much fun. Also , you are liable to get action. Then you can call if you get raised and stop and go bet the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
The turn brought an offsuit 4, making the board Q 8 5 4. 13.5 big bets in the pot. WHAT NOW?


[/ QUOTE ]

What now???? seriously bet again. Raise liberally. The checkraise attempt after three betting the flop was ... in a word....horrible. Nobody (even the fish) fall for that play. The free card is just god awful.

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, all checked. The turn brought a 6, making the board Q 8 6 5 4. WHAT NOW?


[/ QUOTE ]

Beings that you just gave them a free card to the straight, check and call. Value bet there would be real thin.

Botched play. Hope you learn from this one.

Oh yeah, leave the results out next time. But my plays stand up. Hammer this pot on the flop and turn. river, meh, if 77 went all that way, good for him, but he's only getting one bet from me.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

hi Chris,

your turn check sucks majorly.

[ChrisW]

To all who think that there is little chance of a turn checkraise: How does the preflop threebetter know that I don't have AQ? I didn't cap preflop, which I easily might have holding QQ. Also, I didn't just call on the flop, trying for the turn checkraise. I think my play looks more like AQ than QQ. If I do have AQ, to check KK on the turn would be a big error, letting me draw to 5 outs for free (to say nothing of the underpairs and gutshots drawing against him). I said that the game was passive, but it seems to me that only a super-passive and bad player would check an overpair on the turn when everyone checks to him.

By the way, those who think "it's so terrible" to give the free card on the turn need a math refresher. How much am I making if I bet out and am called by (say) one gutshot and KK/AA? I win two more bets 86% of the time (they have 6 collective outs from 42 remaining cards) and lose an extra bet 14% of the time, so the net plus equity is around 1.57 bets.

If I get a checkraise in, (assuming the overpair will call down, which is a lock in this game) I win the same two bets, but I drive out the gutshot, increasing my chance of winning the pot by 9.5%. That's another 1.85 bets (if he hits on the river, we will both pay him off, so I'll lose 19.5 big bets total 9.5% of the time that the gutshot gets to play) for a total equity of plus 3.42 bets. Thus, it breaks even to try for the checkraise if I can get one in 46% of the time. If I only get a checkraise in 1/3 of the time, I'm giving away half a bet in equity. And that's ignoring the (admittedly small) equity of someone who would have folded the turn making a set on the river.

Now, I may have been wrong to try for a turn checkraise. I could accept that I'll only get to checkraise around 1/3 of the time. But it certainly wasn't horrible unless there was virtually no chance that LP would bet the turn. Virtually no chance? Come on, guys.

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]
To all who think that there is little chance of a turn checkraise: How does the preflop threebetter know that I don't have AQ? I didn't cap preflop, which I easily might have holding QQ. Also, I didn't just call on the flop, trying for the turn checkraise. I think my play looks more like AQ than QQ. If I do have AQ, to check KK on the turn would be a big error, letting me draw to 5 outs for free (to say nothing of the underpairs and gutshots drawing against him). I said that the game was passive, but it seems to me that only a super-passive and bad player would check an overpair on the turn when everyone checks to him.

By the way, those who think "it's so terrible" to give the free card on the turn need a math refresher. How much am I making if I bet out and am called by (say) one gutshot and KK/AA? I win two more bets 86% of the time (they have 6 collective outs from 42 remaining cards) and lose an extra bet 14% of the time, so the net plus equity is around 1.57 bets.

If I get a checkraise in, (assuming the overpair will call down, which is a lock in this game) I win the same two bets, but I drive out the gutshot, increasing my chance of winning the pot by 9.5%. That's another 1.85 bets (if he hits on the river, we will both pay him off, so I'll lose 19.5 big bets total 9.5% of the time that the gutshot gets to play) for a total equity of plus 3.42 bets. Thus, it breaks even to try for the checkraise if I can get one in 46% of the time. If I only get a checkraise in 1/3 of the time, I'm giving away half a bet in equity. And that's ignoring the (admittedly small) equity of someone who would have folded the turn making a set on the river.

Now, I may have been wrong to try for a turn checkraise. I could accept that I'll only get to checkraise around 1/3 of the time. But it certainly wasn't horrible unless there was virtually no chance that LP would bet the turn. Virtually no chance? Come on, guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you really think LP puts you on AQ and you also think he has KK, then you should bet. He would raise and you could get a threebet in. So your thinking here does not provide a reason to not bet the turn.

Again, you describe this game as "LOOSE PASSIVE" in your own words. Either you characterized this game incorrectly or you dont understand that a loose-passive player will not bet into you on the turn after a three bet on the flop. It doesn't matter what hand he puts you on, if he even puts you on a hand at all. A passive player getting three bet is often scared off pretty easily, even holding a large overpair.