Why do 100%+ payback VP machines exist?

[bpb]

Could someone please explain to me why there are video poker machines with paytables that produce 100%+ payout with optimal play? I understand that your average player isn't going to play nearly well enough to come near 100%, but why even allow the opportunity for expert players to have a +EV game?

I would think that casinos would simply opt not to buy VP machines with more than 99.5% payout.

[SheetWise]

[ QUOTE ]
Could someone please explain to me why there are video poker machines with paytables that produce 100%+ payout with optimal play? I understand that your average player isn't going to play nearly well enough to come near 100%, but why even allow the opportunity for expert players to have a +EV game?

I would think that casinos would simply opt not to buy VP machines with more than 99.5% payout.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do a survey, you'll find that 90% of the people believe they fall in the top 10% of intelligence.

Simply knowing that a game can be beat is enough to make most people play it. Very few will have the discipline to actually learn how to beat it. The club only needs to look at the bottom line to determine if it's profitable, not the distribution of wins/losses.

[playersare]

a few experts who do play optimally isn't enough to put a dent in the profits made from all the other people who are attracted to a +EV paytable but do NOT play optimally.

even with the good machines, the potential earnings per hour are capped around $10/hr, and that's with HIGH variance. first off, you won't find many 100%+ games on the strip or even downtown, you have to travel locally to places like Palms, Fiesta, Station and Sam's Town to grind away at $1 DB or 25c FPDW.

even those who have studied up on VP a little may still fail because they are underbankrolled, or they don't play max coins on every hand, or they don't earn enough with comps and cashback to cover their daily personal expenses.

if casinos were truly worried about the good games, they would change them or take them away completely. they are obviously not worried.

[bpb]

[ QUOTE ]
a few experts who do play optimally isn't enough to put a dent in the profits made from all the other people who are attracted to a +EV paytable but do NOT play optimally.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are there a lot of suboptimal players though who are playing ONLY because the paytable is +100%? I find it hard to believe that the casinos overall take would decrease if they replaced all their +EV double bonus machines with ones with a less generous paytable.

[ QUOTE ]

even with the good machines, the potential earnings per hour are capped around $10/hr, and that's with HIGH variance. first off, you won't find many 100%+ games on the strip or even downtown, you have to travel locally to places like Palms, Fiesta, Station and Sam's Town to grind away at $1 DB or 25c FPDW.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking more of the $5 and $25 coin machines. The $/hr can quickly get up over $100 when you factor in cashback.

[ QUOTE ]

if casinos were truly worried about the good games, they would change them or take them away completely. they are obviously not worried.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Wynn put in a bank of FPDW machines when they opened. Two weeks later, after nonstop play by professionals, they were gone. Why did they put them there in the first place?

And for that matter, why the hell is VIPSports offering a FPDW machine.

[SheetWise]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it hard to believe that the casinos overall take would decrease if they replaced all their +EV double bonus machines with ones with a less generous paytable.


[/ QUOTE ]
Think about it like blackjack -- the reason it is the most popular table game is that players know it can be beat.

[playersare]

[ QUOTE ]
Are there a lot of suboptimal players though who are playing ONLY because the paytable is +100%? I find it hard to believe that the casinos overall take would decrease if they replaced all their +EV double bonus machines with ones with a less generous paytable.

[/ QUOTE ]
well, again it's obvious that the casinos see no need to change it. 10/7 double bonus is a VERY volatile pay schedule and achieving the actual 100.17% return would probably require millions of hands over time. note for example that a hand of 4 aces occurs only 0.02% of the time (1 out of every 50000 hands) and yet contributes nearly 3.2% of the net EV. also note the bizarre logic that a straight flush only pays 50x even though it is twice as rare as the 4 aces which pays 160x.

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking more of the $5 and $25 coin machines. The $/hr can quickly get up over $100 when you factor in cashback.

[/ QUOTE ]
yes but full pay machines besides JoB are not available in these denominations. the maximum you'll find is as I previously quoted, 25c FPDW and $1 DB. on sub-100% machines, the cashback will bring you close to breakeven, but the casino still wins in the long run. high limit players like Bob Dancer and Jean Scott must rely on temporary promos and side comps in order to afford the casino luxuries they claim in their books.

[ QUOTE ]
The Wynn put in a bank of FPDW machines when they opened. Two weeks later, after nonstop play by professionals, they were gone. Why did they put them there in the first place?
And for that matter, why the hell is VIPSports offering a FPDW machine.

[/ QUOTE ]
casinos will often put both lower limits as well as higher paytables on the floor when the first open (or when a new expansion is completed), to attract attention. no more out of the ordinary than placing an ad in the paper or giving $5 coupons to first time players club members.

and VIP sports is definitely NOT full pay deuces wild. a 9-4-4-3-2-1 schedule only returns 98.91%. sucker.

just calling a machine "Deuces Wild" doesn't make it +EV. a majority of paytables are adjusted to below 100%. have you studied much on the game before? check wizard of odds or read Dan Paymar's book.

[bpb]

[ QUOTE ]

and VIP sports is definitely NOT full pay deuces wild. a 9-4-4-3-2-1 schedule only returns 98.91%. sucker.

just calling a machine "Deuces Wild" doesn't make it +EV. a majority of paytables are adjusted to below 100%. have you studied much on the game before? check wizard of odds or read Dan Paymar's book.

[/ QUOTE ]

The VIP Sports no-download casino has FPDW. (classic deuces wild in the dropdown) 800-200-25-15-9-5-3-2-2-1

I have studied up on VP and I don't think of myself as a sucker. But thanks for the observation.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

and VIP sports is definitely NOT full pay deuces wild. a 9-4-4-3-2-1 schedule only returns 98.91%. sucker.

just calling a machine "Deuces Wild" doesn't make it +EV. a majority of paytables are adjusted to below 100%. have you studied much on the game before? check wizard of odds or read Dan Paymar's book.

[/ QUOTE ]

The VIP Sports no-download casino has FPDW. (classic deuces wild in the dropdown) 800-200-25-15-9-5-3-2-2-1

I have studied up on VP and I don't think of myself as a sucker. But thanks for the observation.

[/ QUOTE ]

he was just saying its a sucker bet

[playersare]

[ QUOTE ]
he was just saying its a sucker bet

[/ QUOTE ]
no it was my mistake, and I apologize for my tone. if OP can verify that the software is legit, then I guess it's worth a shot.

[Toonces]

[ QUOTE ]


Are there a lot of suboptimal players though who are playing ONLY because the paytable is +100%? I find it hard to believe that the casinos overall take would decrease if they replaced all their +EV double bonus machines with ones with a less generous paytable.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are a few things going on here. It's true that the majority of gamblers wouldn't look at the paytables, and so the strip hotels fleese them with the worst paytables. But the LV locals are a lot more likely to play VP than slots and they are a lot more discerning. Since they are often in many casinos, they will choose to play at the ones with the best paytables, whether they know the perfect strategy or not.

Think of it like posted gas prices. Some places price their gas 10 cents over average and hope that the undiscerning consumers will earn them their profit. Others market to the discerning consumer by keeping their gas the cheapest in the area and making it up on volume.

The locals casinos that offer 100%+ games (which, by the way, are essentially never offered over the $1 machines) choose to take a loss on the occasional pros in order to attract all of the discerning players that do pay attention to the publicly displayed paytable, not to mention that they want to take advantage of word of mouth and "Best of..." surveys that are frequent in LV.