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#61
06-29-2005, 01:23 AM
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Re: Low Ceiling vs High Ceiling-SNG strategy(long)
Trying to explain reality to an insane person is as well.
I forgot that in addition to being the PERFECTLY GOOD PLAYER WHO ELIMINATES CHANCE your imaginary friend also has the awesome ability to induce his oppponents to PLAY PERFECTLY BAD. Hey, how many times did you take a hard fall in the rink? I am out, I cede LaLa Land to you. 
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#62
06-29-2005, 01:27 AM
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Re: Low Ceiling vs High Ceiling-SNG strategy(long)
Dude you're missing something huge here.
Nobody suggests using this low ceiling strategy in the early levels. For real, we all know that you play poker at the beginning, and then go ape pushing at the end. So as a lot of people have pointed out...this is nothing new. And I'm truly amazed this has extended to three pages. edit: holy crap, four pages. And some of it is my own contribution...
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#63
06-29-2005, 01:27 AM
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Re: Low Ceiling vs High Ceiling-SNG strategy(long)
[ QUOTE ]
Hey, how many times did you take a hard fall in the rink? [/ QUOTE ] hahahah "rink" I think this is the clincher to the closed mindedness hahahah RINK totally funny!!!
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#65
06-29-2005, 01:30 AM
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Re: Low Ceiling vs High Ceiling-SNG strategy(long)
it has extended to 3 pages because I have done something that 99% of posters never do. I have replied to all questions and answered them to the best of my ability. This, I feel, deserves some respect.
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#66
06-29-2005, 01:55 AM
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Re: Low Ceiling vs High Ceiling-SNG strategy(long)
That is insane. The perfect player MUST lose a hand because it is obviously correct for him to do so. The perfect player calls AA when a donk raises all-in on L1, right? So, there, the perfect player must lose at least 20% of the time. Unless, of course, he folds because he has a greater edge down the line.
But there's no way in hell you have a greater edge than AA does over a random hand. Because blinds exist, because Push/fold does become the mantra in the late game, because no one is good enough to laydown middle set on the flop. Because you can't see the other player's hand, and great players randomize their play to make sure that you can't get a read on them. Because your opponent is trapping 10% of the time, yet you still have to bluff. Because profitable play in poker requires a certain amount of risk, and no one is good enough to eliminate that. A perfect player cannot beat the Big Game for more than 5 BB/hour, because no one can. Because those players play way too close to perfect. Because Game Theory allows you to limit the amount your opponent can win. Look, philosphy has nothing to do with poker. Game Theory has everything to do with Poker. Because the hypothetical perfect opponent makes the best move at every stage of the game, and because the best move in poker means you will lose some of the time. Playing great poker is not just about maximizing your winnings, at the highest levels, it's about decreasing your opponent's winnings, considering poker is a constant sum game.
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#67
06-29-2005, 02:23 AM
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Re: Low Ceiling vs High Ceiling-SNG strategy(long)
When I first read your post I wasn't going to respond because I thought it was full of a lot of wishy-washy ideas however I feel compelled to after reading the thread. Dude I think you are completely off based and talking without thinking. You talk about "stop thinking in terms of reality."
Lets say the perfect player has AK and somebody pushes into him with AJ, if he calls and loses he will go bust. What does he do? He calls. He busts 25% of the time, do the math and you will realize why you are wrong. Of course if you are implying that the perfect player would be able to pass up these edges and play his cards blind than I think you are making a grave mistake. If you have never played against somebody how are you going to know how they are going to play and what ranges of hands they are playing? The PERFECT PLAYER gets AA first hand utg and raises, mp2 pushes. What does the PERFECT PLAYER do here? Fold since he doesn't want to gamble now? You're thinking is correct, higher ROI is certainly attainable at SNG's where the blinds increase slower and you start with deeper stacks however the perfect player is gonna have somebody hit a set on him or some crazy suck out when he has AA, such is the way of the game. IF you truly knew the philosophical aspect of this game you would see why you are wrong. The perfect player plays as close to optimally as possible and accepts the outcome regardless of how the cards fall. People will break down and call you with rags, it is the way of the game. Eventually on the bubble you will push against the tightest player in history and he will get AA and you will bust. It is the way of the game. What you are speaking of is the GOAL of every player. To win every SNG possible and to do everything possible to play optimally. The perfect player can play optimally in the deepest stacked slowest increasing blind tournament and still lose. You talk about not showing down a hand until the final one, so would you suggest folding 75/25 edges due to the fact you may lose? Would the PERFECT player give up these edges? Sure you can play with your cards blind but how often are you gonna force a PP off of their hand when an A flops? This is gonna be a ridiculous comparison but I used to play a RTS game called StarCraft religiously for several years and when the WarCraft 3 beta came out people complained that it took away the competetive edge due to luck. People eventually learned to live with the variance though and accept the game thusly. You can play perfect and still lose and that is simply the way of the game. It is just poker.
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#68
06-29-2005, 02:25 AM
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Re: Low Ceiling vs High Ceiling-SNG strategy(long)
At first I thought it was going to be hard to respond to this post...then I re-read it.
you kinda cut off the paragraph where it really explains what I mean. This is mostly my fault cause I was not specific. I have a problem with this. ahhaha [ QUOTE ] You have no idea what the player's image is at the table. You have no idea what the SB and BB are like as players. He has not told you one hand either of these players have turned over. [/ QUOTE ] They say push but they don't know, because no one has told them the important information. This is what I hate. Another example could be... If you're on the bubble and the blinds are 25/50 what do Calculation Tools do for you??? It will show you the optimal preflop play. It will show you what hands are the best hands to push with the given information. NOT the optimal play in total. You get 2 free hands but the blinds aren't worth enough to push evey other hand. Also I don't mean to be logical here but no one uses an ICM or Pokerstove or any of those tools during the hand. So really you can only use what you memorize and every situation is different. But one could argue that most situations are close...but then this would not be optimal now would it hahahah. I think the most important point you make is the first sentence... [ QUOTE ] Actually, yes it does, because you have told it. [/ QUOTE ] exactly the tool converts your opinions into the optimal answer to the question you pose. So very important to understand. you write.... [ QUOTE ] It's not for you. That's cool. Just don't try to discredit it in ways that don't make sense. [/ QUOTE ] and also [ QUOTE ] You find analysis dry, boring, and, as you characterized it, anti-freedom. It's clinical, for squares, and just plain no fun, right? Well, not everybody feels that way. Some people think working the numbers is fun, and there's actually a deeply creative element in trying to find new ways to apply analysis to poker situations. [/ QUOTE ] I think i am going to call you Easybay from now on....calm down man hahahah. If you think I find analysis boring you're completely wrong. BUT this type of analysis I only think is important in certain situations. What am I trying to discredit???? See I feel you think I'm talking about you hahaha defintely not. I have no idea who you are. I have read some of your posts and they're very interesting. I like them a lot. But to say that I'm trying to discredit something in ways that don't make sense is ridiculous. Basing your strategy soley on Preflop play, or Low Ceiling type of play as I like to call it, is sub optimal. There is a ceiling that will be reached. You have no range. This can not be disagreed with I think you know this because you made this comment... [ QUOTE ] I think you point out an important concept: that edges in deep stack poker can be bigger than short stack poker. However, I don't think this is not already well understood by most intermediate players. [/ QUOTE ] I really appreciate your reply.
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#69
06-29-2005, 02:36 AM
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Re: Low Ceiling vs High Ceiling-SNG strategy(long)
just to let you know that the perfect player thing has very little to do with my original post. Not sure why you latched on to this but you did. It really is another thread. Now you believe that I am "completely off based and talking without thinking." That I feel is pretty insulting considering you have judged me and the post, because of one spin off of one line. The Perfect thing got started with someone during the thread and spinned out of control. I would rather not get into that on this thread. If you want to PM I would love to discuss it with you. I think the concept is simple to understand once you let go of what you believe to be perfection.
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