Word of Warning to home games

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
hi, i run homepokergames.com. It's pretty obvious i don't want police anywhere near my site. I received an email from someone in VA asking to de-list his game because it got busted. I assumed it was the same one.

My position on home games is this: if it is a raked game then i think most people dont have too much sympathy for those who get caught. Personally, i dont have any problem with people raking home games. I have attended raked home games, but i prefer not to play in them purely for financial reasons.

For "normal" home games it's a different story. Home poker games have a long tradition in America of being a very safe social activity where people can have fun. Unfortunately, our government doesn't see it that way. Police officers are like anyone else who have jobs - if there is no work for them to do then there is no reason for them to have a job. So they find anything to arrest people for. People who host home games on my site seem to fall into 2 groups: the law-abiding Stepford citizens who are hesistant to list on my site, and the i-dont-give-a-s***-about-the-police group. There's tons of games out there who aren't listing on my site out of fear - i can tell by the paranoia of the people who actually do list. It is merely a matter of risk-tolerance - the ones that are listing on my site are willing to take the risk and accept any consequences.

I dont host a game but i would be in the second group if i did. Personally, I wouldnt mind my game being busted. Busting 10 people for gambling for low stakes in your own home has the opportunity to turn yourself into a martyr. I would just go to the media to get sympathy. Poker is a skill game that is played by 100 million people in this country. But most people don't have the energy/interest/courage to do this. Admittedly, my hate for the government runs stronger than most. Having cops coming into my home to seize my money would piss me off. But the fact is, things aren't going to change unless people get mad. The more raids there are, then the more people will get mad. The cost that the busted home games bear is a nessesary cost to achieve the future freedom we want. Hopefully it will not be for nothing and any raids that happen around the country will be the catalyst for change.

Also, I am planning major upgrades to my site and may try to find a technological tool that would help the hosts' anonymity.

if anyone wants to contact me with any info (including police info) then email me at kkiely AT aol.com

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey dude, glad you post here and at least read here. Why don't you retire from that shilthole known as RGP and come post where real men post.

In all seriousness, good post, nice site.

It's unfortunate that the police have to take time raiding raked or certainly un-raked home games when there are Pushers, rapists and murders walking around like it's their world.

[Cubswin]

Slamdunk

I believe your info is incorrect.


[ QUOTE ]
§ 18.2-334. Exception to article; private residences.

Nothing in this article shall be construed to make it illegal to participate in a game of chance conducted in a private residence, provided such private residence is not commonly used for such games of chance and there is no operator as defined in subsection 4 of § 18.2-325.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
§ 18.2-325. Definitions
4. "Operator" includes any person, firm or association of persons, who conducts, finances, manages, supervises, directs or owns all or part of an illegal gambling enterprise, activity or operation.

[/ QUOTE ]
My only question for lawyers out there is what does "commonly used" mean?

If anyone wants to figure out their state laws on gambling go here .

regards
cubs

[Cubswin]

There is a thread over at RGP about this. Direct Link

A poster at RGP actually wrote an email to the Fairfax Police Chief. The email and responce from the police chief follow:

-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan S. Slick [mailtonyx_hokie@hi-lo.not]
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 1:32 PM
To: FCPD Chief, Fairfax County Police
Subject: Congratulations

I have been reading online today about your Department's recent raid of a home poker game in Centreville.

I would like to congratulate you, sir, and your Department, on keeping Fairfax County in general and the Centreville area in specific so free of drugs, murder, theft, rape, etc.. that the efforts of the police can be so finely focused on the dangerous element represented by poker players.



-------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Congratulations
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:29:19 -0400
From: "FCPD Chief, Fairfax County Police"
<ChiefFairfaxCountyPolice@FairfaxCounty.gov& gt;
To: "Bryan S. Slick" <onyx_hokie@hi-lo.not>

Mr. Slick,

In reference to your recent email, the case you are speaking of is currently under investigation and I cannot comment directly on it. I can tell you that the police department does not target friendly home poker games, in which the "house" does not get a cut of the stakes.

We investigate gambling organizations, in which the organizers receive large cuts of money. These cases often evolve following complaints from family members, after someone has lost a large sum of money or the family's savings.

Some of these cases result in additional violations, as once someone is in debt they may be forced to pay high interest loans and risk getting assaulted if they do not pay.

I hope this gives you a better understanding of how we use our resources.

Sincerely,

David M. Rohrer, Colonel
Chief of Police

[random]

Good response from the cop.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, our government doesn't see it that way. Police officers are like anyone else who have jobs - if there is no work for them to do then there is no reason for them to have a job. So they find anything to arrest people for.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good to see you posting here. While your intetions are good I think you anger might be a little misguided. The police are merely enforcing the law....which is their job. If you do not agree with the laws, working to get the laws changed would be much more productive and make much more sense than trying to start some sort of Poker Players v. United States of America battle.


[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I wouldnt mind my game being busted.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you were convicted of a felony I think you would probably change your mind.


[ QUOTE ]
I would just go to the media to get sympathy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not really sure what this would accomplish. Would "the media" give you money to buy a house after the bank turns you down for being a convicted felon?


[ QUOTE ]
Having cops coming into my home to seize my money would piss me off.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would think so [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


Seriously though, starting some imaginary turf war with the cops is not going to fix this. Either be a little more discreet about the rake, don't rake, or work towards making small raked games legal.

-tpir

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe your info is incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny you say that when we are both quoting from the same sounce: www.gambling-law-us.com.

If you read into code a little further

18.2-328 onducting illegal gambling operation; penalties.

The operator of an illegal gambling enterprise, activity or operation shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony. However, any such operator who engages in an illegal gambling operation which (i) has been or remains in substantially continuous operation for a period in excess of thirty days or (ii) has gross revenue of $2,000 or more in any single day shall be fined not more than $20,000 and imprisoned not less than one year nor more than ten years.
As used in this section, the term "gross revenue" means the total amount of illegal gambling transactions handled, dealt with, received by or placed with such operation, as distinguished from any net figure or amount from which deductions are taken, without regard to whether money or any other thing of value actually changes hands.

The other interesting statue is: 18.2-333. Exceptions to article; certain sporting events.

Nothing in this article shall be construed to prevent any contest of speed or skill between men, animals, fowl or vehicles, where participants may receive prizes or different percentages of a purse, stake or premium dependent upon whether they win or lose or dependent upon their position or score at the end of such contest.


I guess it means that poker is legal / illegal depending on whci way the wind blows in VA

[Cubswin]

Slamdunk

§ 18.2-328 would not even apply to a non-raked home game so long as there is no 'operator' of that game. It doesnt matter what the stakes of the game are or how much money crosses the table... as long as it is not raked or have an 'operator' it doesnt fall under the aforementioned law.

I believe that non-raked homegame would be protected under the article you mentioned (§ 18.2-333) if VA defines poker as a game of skill and it would also be protected under § 18.2-334 if the Commonwealth of VA defines poker as a game of chance.

I still would like to know what 'commonly used' means in §18.2-334. I would also like to know if acting as the table banker for an unraked game would qualify you as a "persons, who conducts, finances, manages, supervises, directs or owns all or part of an illegal gambling enterprise, activity or operation". I dont think it would but maybe some lawyer types out there could chime in and enlighten us.

regards
cubs

[slamdunkpro]

I suspect that both “operator” and “commonly used” are left intentionally vague so as to give the state some latitude when it comes to prosecuting individuals. In the Virginia case, event if no rake was being taken (and I never saw one) I’m sure that the homeowner will be prosecuted as an “operator” since there were multiple tables involved.

To go a step further there is a strong similarity to the 20 questions that the IRS gives you to ask to determine whether an individual is a contractor or an employee; the 20 questions that AA asks; or the 20 questions that GA asks. Since it’s in the IRS’s best interest for everyone to be an employee and it’s in AA’s and GA’s best interest to gain new members; everyone who takes the test is an employee, a drunk or a hopeless gambler.

8.2-325’s definition of an “operator” is in the same vein. Based on the broad wording of the definition anyone who hosts a home game could be declared an “operator”

[BusterFlush]

The examples you cite of busted games sound like professional ops and not home games.

[Mojo Tooth]

Here's a link to a Milwaukee newspaper story about the dude busted recently:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/aug04/248776.asp
[ QUOTE ]
Leone and six other men and a woman were arrested July 25 in a home in the 6300 block of Riverdale Lane on allegations of participating in an illegal gambling game.

According to the criminal complaint, when police entered the residence they found more than $8,000 in cash, poker chips, a card table, cocaine and a handgun.

The criminal complaint states that Greendale police found individuals playing Texas hold 'em, a type of poker game popular in professional tournaments shown on cable television. There was also a professional dealer, the complaint says.


[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno about you, but at my home game nobody brings more than $50, nobody brings a gun, and hardly EVER does anybody bring cocaine. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]