Party 5/10, waiting until the river to raise donk bettor

SinCityGuy · #1 07-09-2005, 01:52 AM

The opponent in this hand is a loose/moderately aggressive donk. I waited until the river to raise. I was a bit surprised when he re-raised, and I just called. Who likes this line?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: SinCityGuy is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, SinCityGuy raises, 7 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (5.40 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, SinCityGuy calls.

Turn: (3.70 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, SinCityGuy calls.

River: (5.70 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, SinCityGuy raises, UTG 3-bets, SinCityGuy calls.

Final Pot: 11.70 BB

Shillx · #2 07-09-2005, 01:55 AM

I'm probably the only other person on the boards that uses this line as a default play when someone bets into me HU after I raise preflop. I do it mainly because it works and I find that the bettor fires away on all 3 streets no matter what he holds. This might not be the best board to use this line since there are some possible draws out there, but this line is great IMO when the board is drawless. Calling the flop and raising the turn is probably your best play here since the villian could easily have a flush or straight draw.

Brad

Harv72b · #3 07-09-2005, 03:42 AM

Most of the time I will raise the turn in a HU situation like this one. Other times I will raise immediately on the flop, hoping to be 3-bet so I can call that and raise the turn anyway. Which line I take is almost entirely mood dependent, although I'm more likely to fastplay it vs. a tough, aggressive opponent (who is more likely to check call the turn even if I only call his flop bet).

I will very rarely wait until the river to raise, for a multitude of reasons:

-Sometimes you get 3-bet, as in this hand, and have no idea what that means. You look to be pretty safe in this instance with the board pairing on the turn & most players on 5/10 likely to have raised TT from UTG (basically you're only likely to be behind if he has 77 or A3s, maybe a miracle river vs. 88), but I like to define my hand before the river so I'm not often put in the position of calling river 3-bets.
-Sometimes your opponent was betting a draw the whole way (fairly likely on this flop), and will check/fold the river if he misses it, when he would gladly call your raise on the turn.
-A savvy opponent will check/call the river, especially on such a drawy, raggy board, with anything that doesn't beat your overpair. This of course makes waiting to raise the river a bad option.
-If a scare card comes on the river, this makes your planned raise more difficult to pull off. For example, change that river card to the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], or worse still T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and tell me if you'd still want to hit that "raise" button. Your aces may well still be good, and in fact probably are, but many of us have a lot of trouble putting in a raise on the river when there's such an obvious possibility that we've just been beaten. A good thing when your opponent did indeed just draw out on you (unless he would have folded to a raise on an earlier street), but often a missed bet when your hand is good.

Basically, the only time I'll take this line is when I either flop a set on a relatively safe board, or when for whatever reasons I can very confidently put my opponent on a smaller, unimproved pocket pair. The latter situation may well apply in this case, but without a more detailed read I can't really say.

Ryan11 · #4 07-09-2005, 04:01 AM

I raise the flop and raise the turn if bet into or bet if not. What are the reads on villian? If he is aggro or maniacish then I always raise hoping to cap the flop.

SinCityGuy · #5 07-09-2005, 04:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I raise the flop and raise the turn if bet into or bet if not.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I first started playing poker, I would raise the flop 100% of the time in these situations. Frequently, I would take down the pot immediately.

Piiop · #6 07-09-2005, 05:43 AM

I think by not raising sooner in these spots you are missing value. Also, on more drawless boards (like AK on an A 7 3 flop) I like it more. But on a draw-heavy board, a lot of times you won't want to (or shouldn't) raise when the board gets scary.

Chris Daddy Cool · #7 07-09-2005, 07:06 AM

on a drawless board i'd wait to raise.

however this board has a draw on it AND you said your opponent was aggro donkish. i think you're missing value by not raising earlier because he may be willing to go to war with you on the younger streets.

SinCityGuy · #8 07-10-2005, 02:10 AM

The donk had J9o for the rivered gutshot straight. In retrospect, I should have raised the turn (as several posters pointed out.) I might have won the hand there, but there's a good chance that the donk would have called the raise anyway.

HajiShirazu · #9 07-10-2005, 10:18 AM

Calling the flop with a real hand is good for metagame purposes. Waiting until the turn can slow these "any pair, any draw" types down. Also you win more money unless they had a hand which they would have gone to war on the flop with, but most of the time this donk bet line isn't a hand they're going to war on the flop with. Still I usually like to put the raise in on the turn since these types often will give up with their draw on the river.

sthief09 · #10 07-10-2005, 03:32 PM

the problem with waiting for the river is most of the time, they'll check weak made hands but bet bluffs or good hands, most of which beat you. and if he has a good hand like top pair, then he's not folding anyway. in general, our opponents don't value bet well, which is obviously very exploitable. but you have to think of it the other way aroudn too. we can't rely on him to bet/call with bottom pair here.