Over pair against a 2+2er - Page 2

MrWookie47 · #11 09-23-2005, 02:17 PM

Upon further review, I check QQ. However, I don't raise this turn with QQ, either. I'd rather call down than get 3bet.

AA and KK are bet/calls. JJ is an obvious b/3b.

@bsolute_luck · #12 09-23-2005, 02:33 PM

i'm gonna rebuild the hand because there are some corrections that might change things:

Hero is UTG with X[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero raises, 1 fold, Super Hero..er...2+2er 3-bets, BB calls, Hero caps, Amazing poker player...er..2+2er calls, BB calls

Flop 12.5 SB 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2+2er checks, BB checks, Hero bets, 2+2er raises, BB calls,Hero 3-bets, 2+2er calls, BB calls

Turn 12BB: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2+2er bets, BB calls, Hero raises, 2+2er calls, BB folds

River 18 BB 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2+2er checks, Hero???

Redd · #13 09-23-2005, 02:43 PM

'Super Hero' has KK/QQ and I'd again bet any hand but QQ. I'm guessing you more likely have QQ because you seem pretty concerned with protection. I don't think you need to pay it off here either.

DavidC · #14 09-23-2005, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hero is UTG with [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

 Hero raises , 1 fold, 2+2er 3-bets , BB calls , Hero caps , 2+2er calls , BB calls .

Flop: (12.5 SB) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

 2+2er bets , BB calls , Hero raises , 2+2er 3-bets , BB (moran) calls , Hero caps, 2+2er calls , BB calls ,

Turn: (12 BB) J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

 2+2er bets , BB calls , Hero raises , 2+2er calls , BB folds .

River: (18 BB) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

 2+2er checks , Hero ???? 

What hands do you bet/call, bet/fold, check behind?

And why.

All this is from memory, but that's pretty much the gist of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, since we know that you have unsuited cards, you either have AK here or a pair. Since you went nuts, you have a pair, maybe even a good one. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Since he went nuts and the board is rainbow, he probably has a pair too.

So, what's your question, you raised the turn and he called you. He either has TT,QQ,KK, or AA. Since he's a 2+2er he doesn't have AA or JJ... he therefore has KK, QQ, or TT. PF he COULD have 99, but that would be weird as he should probably have folded. However, if he had 99 he wouldn't have slowed down on the turn.

Your enemy hand range is KK,QQ,TT.

Obviously bet AA and KK.

When you have QQ, it gets a little tougher. It's a break-even bet, so you should do it, just for your image, even though it won't add to your bottom line, unless it will add to the rake (which would make it a negative play, so don't bet in that case).

The only question is, would villain have gotten this ag with TT on that flop when you were pounding him? In my opinion, probably, because he's OOP and doesn't want to give overcards a free play to bet him...

So, if it won't increase the rake, bet hands QQ and better, otherwise, bet hands KK and better.

benkath1 · #15 09-23-2005, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i'm gonna rebuild the hand because there are some corrections that might change things:

Hero is UTG with X[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero raises, 1 fold, Super Hero..er...2+2er 3-bets, BB calls, Hero caps, Amazing poker player...er..2+2er calls, BB calls

Flop 12.5 SB 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2+2er checks, BB checks, Hero bets, 2+2er raises, BB calls,Hero 3-bets, 2+2er calls, BB calls

Turn 12BB: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2+2er bets, BB calls, Hero raises, 2+2er calls, BB folds

River 18 BB 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2+2er checks, Hero???

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. You have a much better memory than I, seem to have. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

The check raise changes thing a bit. On the turn I felt a little FPS coming my way and narowed Super hero down to maybe JJ and got a little fearsome. If you would have check raised the river (like you said you would), well I'd blame you for one less kitten in this world. As it stands, I checked behind.

The funny thing is, for all you newer players, this is a hand I would have lost many BBs with 6 months ago. Thanks to all the quality posters in the micros (seriously) I have learned not to fall in love. I'm not sure if it is the right play or not, and I'm not sure if you thought I had what I thought you thought I had, but I really didn't want to pay 2 bets on this river.

@bsolute_luck · #16 09-23-2005, 03:26 PM

i've thought about your river check through and against a 2+2er (well me anyways) it is a good play actually if you don't have JJ or TT. here's why:

i'm not paying you off if i have QQ, i'm c/r you if i have JJ/TT even if i don't (as i threatened to do [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) and you're going to pay a lot to see what i have.

plus it is doubtful i'm paying you off if i have KK because there is no way (as other's have said) you should be raising QQ on that turn, so there are no hands i beat unless we're splitting with the very unlikely KK.

so that leaves AA, which if you have KK, you should check through too. makes sense to me anyways [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

AdamL · #17 09-23-2005, 03:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hero is UTG with [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

 Hero raises , 1 fold, 2+2er 3-bets , BB calls , Hero caps , 2+2er calls , BB calls .

Flop: (12.5 SB) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

 2+2er bets , BB calls , Hero raises , 2+2er 3-bets , BB (moran) calls , Hero caps, 2+2er calls , BB calls ,

Turn: (12 BB) J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

 2+2er bets , BB calls , Hero raises , 2+2er calls , BB folds .

River: (18 BB) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

 2+2er checks , Hero ???? 

What hands do you bet/call, bet/fold, check behind?

And why.

All this is from memory, but that's pretty much the gist of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, since we know that you have unsuited cards, you either have AK here or a pair. Since you went nuts, you have a pair, maybe even a good one. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Since he went nuts and the board is rainbow, he probably has a pair too.

So, what's your question, you raised the turn and he called you. He either has TT,QQ,KK, or AA. Since he's a 2+2er he doesn't have AA or JJ... he therefore has KK, QQ, or TT. PF he COULD have 99, but that would be weird as he should probably have folded. However, if he had 99 he wouldn't have slowed down on the turn.

Your enemy hand range is KK,QQ,TT.

Obviously bet AA and KK.

When you have QQ, it gets a little tougher. It's a break-even bet, so you should do it, just for your image, even though it won't add to your bottom line, unless it will add to the rake (which would make it a negative play, so don't bet in that case).

The only question is, would villain have gotten this ag with TT on that flop when you were pounding him? In my opinion, probably, because he's OOP and doesn't want to give overcards a free play to bet him...

So, if it won't increase the rake, bet hands QQ and better, otherwise, bet hands KK and better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just about to write this post, but you beat me to it. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

MrWookie47 · #18 09-23-2005, 04:21 PM

With that action, things are very different. KK looks a lot worse, and if it was QQ, it was played almost maniacally (from hero, not super hero).

AA is still a value bet, however.

Redd · #19 09-23-2005, 04:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With that action, things are very different. KK looks a lot worse, and if it was QQ, it was played almost maniacally (from hero, not super hero).

AA is still a value bet, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you mean? Villain gave less action in the revised hand than the original?

benkath1 · #20 09-23-2005, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With that action, things are very different. KK looks a lot worse, and if it was QQ, it was played almost maniacally (from hero, not super hero).

AA is still a value bet, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you mean? Villain gave less action in the revised hand than the original?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he means the check raise.