Changes that Need to be Made in No Limit

[DaveduFresne]

I believe over the past year, as the newer players (like myself) have gotten some seasoning in No Limit Hold'em, some plays that formerly worked no longer do work, and general adjustments need to be made. I want to make a list of some of these and see whether other players agree or disagree.

1. Don't draw to flushes, unless your hand has something else going for it. (ie a straight draw, possibly two overcards etc.)

You almost never have "pot odds" for your flush, and the implied odds just aren't there. People aren't paying off anymore when that third suited card hits.

2. Don't raise AK preflop (at least not religiously) you won't get paid if you hit, but if you hit and someone else hits even better in a raised pot with you, you lose your stack. In an unraised pot, you can get away from the hand.

Sometimes you lose to crappy two pairs that wouldve folded to a raise, but you benefit from KQ's and QJ's that assume their hand must be good.

3. Aces or Kings are not an all in hand post flop. (Unless you've gotten a minimum of twenty percent of your stack in preflop). Obvious exceptions with this one, but most mediocre or better players are not going to gamble their whole stack with a hand that can't beat a pocket pair, even a big one.

4. Unless you're a bluffer, don't bother going all in, unless the pot size dictates it. People rarely bluff all in, so going all in with the nuts rarely works. People used to always assume all in meant bluff, but they've learned expensive lessons this is not the case.

5. Don't call a raise from a decent or better player with just top pair. Either reraise or fold here (unless you have a flush draw or straight draw to go with your top pair.)

6. Slowplay more. Slowplaying used to be stupid, as you'd be losing bets that people would be calling virtually drawing dead. If someone had Aces or Kings, and you flopped a set, you could almost always lead into them and expect a reraise all in, now this some times shuts players down. If you slowplay your set, they may pot commit themselves to the point that whenever you do raise them, even though they know they're likely beaten, they'll throw in a crying call.

7. Don't reraise all in with pocket Kings someone who has threebet you preflop. Look for that King on the flop and increase your chances of taking someone with pocket Queens chips. An all in preflop (against a full stacked player) will almost only be called by Aces unless a player is bad or is on tilt.

Note:

I know poker is about reads and situations. For example, if you have a maniac at your table, you're not going to fold your pocket Aces just because he leads into you on the flop, and in fact going all in there might be a great move. Against an average or better player, such a move would be foolhardy.

These are general guidelines based on average plays I see. Taking the flush draw example, you might just want to call a pot sized bet by a fish to make your flush if you KNOW he will call your all in if you hit. Against normal players, calling pot sized bets on flush draws will break you.

[BZ_Zorro]

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6. Slowplay less. Slowplaying has always been stupid, as you'd be losing bets that people would be calling virtually drawing dead. You'd also be letting the second best hand (also being slowplayed) get away easily. If someone has Aces or Kings, and you flopped a set, you can almost always lead into them and expect a reraise. If you bet out your set, they may raise and pot commit themselves to the point that whenever you do raise them, even though they know they're likely beaten, they'll throw in a crying call.

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I'm bored, so I FYP. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[xorbie]

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1. Don't draw to flushes, unless your hand has something else going for it. (ie a straight draw, possibly two overcards etc.)

You almost never have "pot odds" for your flush, and the implied odds just aren't there. People aren't paying off anymore when that third suited card hits.

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This is terrible advice. If you do find yourself having this problem, simply bet out whenever a flush hits. Great bluff if nobody ever calls right?

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2. Don't raise AK preflop (at least not religiously) you won't get paid if you hit, but if you hit and someone else hits even better in a raised pot with you, you lose your stack. In an unraised pot, you can get away from the hand.

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More terrible advice. If you can't get away from AK in a raise pot that's because you may be playing it incorrectly. In an unraised pot, you end up losing the betting lead and losing to T8 which hits top pair for free.

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3. Aces or Kings are not an all in hand post flop. (Unless you've gotten a minimum of twenty percent of your stack in preflop). Obvious exceptions with this one, but most mediocre or better players are not going to gamble their whole stack with a hand that can't beat a pocket pair, even a big one.

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This is very situation dependent.

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4. Unless you're a bluffer, don't bother going all in, unless the pot size dictates it. People rarely bluff all in, so going all in with the nuts rarely works. People used to always assume all in meant bluff, but they've learned expensive lessons this is not the case.

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This is also very wrong.

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5. Don't call a raise from a decent or better player with just top pair. Either reraise or fold here (unless you have a flush draw or straight draw to go with your top pair.)

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Unsurprisingly, this is also wrong. There are certainly situations which warrant calling with top pair.

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6. Slowplay more. Slowplaying used to be stupid, as you'd be losing bets that people would be calling virtually drawing dead. If someone had Aces or Kings, and you flopped a set, you could almost always lead into them and expect a reraise all in, now this some times shuts players down. If you slowplay your set, they may pot commit themselves to the point that whenever you do raise them, even though they know they're likely beaten, they'll throw in a crying call.

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With deep stacks, how else do you want to get in on the river?

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7. Don't reraise all in with pocket Kings someone who has threebet you preflop. Look for that King on the flop and increase your chances of taking someone with pocket Queens chips. An all in preflop (against a full stacked player) will almost only be called by Aces unless a player is bad or is on tilt.

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This is sometimes accurate.

[unlucky513]

honestly, could be the worst advice i've ever read. i think you missed 100% on most of your guidelines.

edit - after actually reading what you wrote word for word, i am now positive you are 100% wrong on everything you wrote.

[DaveduFresne]

FYP?

And I think what you changed it to is an excellent example of what wouldve been great advice a year or two ago (at least for low stakes online play) but is no longer true today.

Players are getting much better at laying down hands now. That's why you slowplay, to disguise your hand/confuse your opponent (and sometimes allow them to catch up to you to make second best).

Of course whether it is advisable to slowplay depends on the flop, and also on your ability to lay down your hand if an opponent catches a lucky card to beat you. On a flop of AK9 when you have a set of nines, it is NOT a spot where it is usually worthwhile to slowplay. You could be giving a dangerous free card to QJ a hand a lot of people still play, and also, with the Ace and the King out there, it is likely your opponent got some piece of the flop. Now on a flop like K72, where you have a set of deuces it might be a good idea to slowplay. The next card off cannot make a straight, but might give someone a draw to one. Obviously if the flop gets checked, then you put a bet in on the turn.

In the past I wouldn't slowplay a hand like this, because even a hand like K10 would call potsized bets to the river.

And you cannot expect a player with Aces to reraise you all in if he only got 4 or 5 BB's in preflop. This play is very situational. If he's the type of player who pretty much only raises with Aces and Kings, he's more likely to lay down. Unless he perceives you as either a fish or a hyper aggressive player, hes going to assume that you know that he has a high pocket. So you bet into what should be a hand he's controlling. He'll probably call your lead bet and see what you do on the turn. He'll figure he's either way ahead or way behind, and doesn't mind playing it this way. Reraising you all in is unlikely to be a viable strategy for him.

Heads up, I much prefer slowplaying sets to leading with them now. But it depends how I play my other hands against this player. If I would check and call with a draw or an underpair that I might think is good, then I like the slowplay. If I'm the type to reraise on the come or to see where I'm at I would like to play my sets fast.

Hoped this cleared that point up.

David

[BZ_Zorro]

In case you'd like responses...

#3,5,7 seem OK in general (at least at $100NL). <edit - on second thoughts I don't like 5 either. I think you mean uber-tight, not good<edit>. The rest of the guidelines seem like good advice for rocks and mice with a tight table image.

For someone with a looser/more chaotic table image, 1,2,4,6 should be the opposite.

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That's why you slowplay, to disguise your hand/confuse your opponent

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I think leading out does a much better job of this. Perhaps that's where we disagree. After pf raises, flat calling/min raising/check raising looks so ridiculously suspicious.

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(and sometimes allow them to catch up to you to make second best).

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This is the only reason to ever slow play imo. But why not at least try to build a pot for when they do hit?
Unless you flop a fullhouse and there's a flush/straight draw out there, there's rarely a hand that's going to make second best and pay you off.

[DaveduFresne]

"This is terrible advice. If you do find yourself having this problem, simply bet out whenever a flush hits. Great bluff if nobody ever calls right?"

The whole point is players are getting more sophisticated. If you bluff everytime a flush card hits, they're not going to respect that bet and you'll get called and lose. The amount you lose with your bluff probably won't make up for what you win when you actually did hit when they call.

One thing I think should never be forgotten is players do have calling instincts. They're making laydowns now, but if you bluff much, don't expect a lot of respect.

I play tight, as do most successful online low limit no limit players. These guidelines may not be applicable to players who use other styles.

"More terrible advice. If you can't get away from AK in a raise pot that's because you may be playing it incorrectly. In an unraised pot, you end up losing the betting lead and losing to T8 which hits top pair for free."

Ok, heres a scenario. You are in LP with AK. You call a raise from EP. Flop comes A58 rainbow. The pot is hu between you and the raiser. 99/100 you're losing all your chips here.

"T8 which hits top pair for free."

If T8 is top pair, then your AK is junk anyway. I assume you mean two pair. I explain how this is a hazard, but you also benefit because you're getting paid more from the trouble hands. A lot of players now know not to put a lot of value in KQ in a raised pot. In an unraised pot they will probably call pot sized bets to the river. (when they hit top pair)

"This is very situation dependent. (In response to my comment on Aces and Kings)."

Yes it is, I'm making some generalizations. Learning to lay down Aces or Kings on the flop is one of the harder plays to make, but if you want to save yourself some money, as long as other players aren't aware youre doing this you can lay them down to any flop reraise. (with a less than twenty percent preflop stack commitment).

"Unless you're a bluffer, don't bother going all in, unless the pot size dictates it. People rarely bluff all in, so going all in with the nuts rarely works. People used to always assume all in meant bluff, but they've learned expensive lessons this is not the case.



This is also very wrong."

I see it all day long. Tight player has nuts or very strong hand. Fish is calling them down. Tight player sees unthreatening river card. Goes all in. Fish decides "oh maybe my top pair isn't good after all" and folds. Asks tight player "did you have the flush?" when the board is paired and the guy actually had a full house or quads.

Value bet, don't go all in, unless the pot size warrants going all in. OK, semantics here, don't overbet all in. The amount of value bets you are losing by doing so is going to counterbalance the rare fish who gets suckered by this play.

"Unsurprisingly, this is also wrong. There are certainly situations which warrant calling with top pair."

Yeah, once again, never said there were any laws in poker, trying to make some general guidelines here.

"Slowplay more. Slowplaying used to be stupid, as you'd be losing bets that people would be calling virtually drawing dead. If someone had Aces or Kings, and you flopped a set, you could almost always lead into them and expect a reraise all in, now this some times shuts players down. If you slowplay your set, they may pot commit themselves to the point that whenever you do raise them, even though they know they're likely beaten, they'll throw in a crying call.


With deep stacks, how else do you want to get in on the river?"

Most good players will assume you are on a draw or have some sort of a weaker hand and will try to make you pay to draw out on them with Aces.

Only the most sophisticated of players will interpret your smoothcall as equal to a raise and know when to shutdown just based on your smoothcall.

Congratulations, you took down a well thought out post with a couple of brief retorts. As I stated, we all know poker is situational.

Can you really tell me its smart to call a potsized bet to make a flush (in general!) with one or two players in the pot besides yourself? And how often is the pot underpet? (Probably less than 10% of the times in my experience). No one on here should need me or anyone else to tell them that its ok to draw to a flush when they're getting 10/1.

I think you're trying to obfuscate the issues by pointing out that there are exceptions to what I said, when I never intended to make the six Commandments of poker.

David

[BZ_Zorro]

I'm curious: what limits you play and what table image you believe you have? $50NL is different to $100 is different to $200. My experiences come from $100, I see players doing all the things they did 6 months ago and more.

[DaveduFresne]

I play 10 max $50 and 100 NL if this helps.

I have never seen a loose player that is successful here, or a player that bluffs frequently.

The loosest player I have seen be successful is what I believe is the rare species the "tight aggressive player" which in my book is the player who has the goods 90% of the time, but uses his image to occassionally make moves, most of which go unrealized by the other players at the table.

Once a player is much looser than this, probably all of my guidelines are wrong, because players calling instincts kick in, and are lower limits these instincts don't lie too far below the surface.

I will once again reiterate I have never seen a player be consistantly successful at low limit full ring NL with a loose style or even a moderately loose style. This is the reason I believe my guidelines are reasonably accurate.

[DaveduFresne]

I also play exclusively on Prima if this helps.