What was Phil Ivey thinking?

[Smoothcall]

WSOP circuit that was on tonight. I didn't see the beginning but the first hand i see is Phil Ivey moving in from what appeared to be the button with 95 off and very little chips against the chip leader's bb who is loose as a goose Bellande. Did i miss somthing? I really must have as i never seen Phil make a total donkey play until this. So maybe i saw it wrong? What actually happened?

[einbert]

I believe Bellande, limped in EP, folded to Phil on the button who pushes, folded back to Bellande who thinks for a while, says a couple of sentences to Phil and then calls.

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i never seen Phil make a total donkey play

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Thanks for letting us know it was a bad play. I'm sure you would have made the correct play, which Phil obviously couldn't figure out.

I mean come on, results oriented analysis, and analysis without having actually been at the table, or knowing any thing really about these players (for example how tight the blinds are and Bellande's limping frequency from EP both play a key role in this decision).

Good players understand that when they get low on chips in a tournament that they have to take chances to get themselves a shot to win, and they take them. It doesn't always work out, obviously.

[AngryCola]

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Did i miss somthing?

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Yeah, everything ESPN edits out.

Without some real context, it's hard to judge this particular play.

[Smoothcall]

I guess i'm missing something again. Is there a rule that i'm not allowed to 2nd guess a poker star on tv? I wasn't awre of this and i aplogize if this isn't allowed. Btw when you watch sports and you favorite team screws up the game by something that looked obvious to you that they shouldn't have done do you 2nd guess the move? Or no because all your friends will flame you for daring to 2nd guess a professional athlete or managers play on a given instance? Isn't this why this forum is here to discuss hands we see on tv that are interesting, informative, and or controversial?

Btw i think he makes a mistake trying to move bellande off a hand with the small amount of chips phil has. And bellande's obvious willingness to get involved. Does that mean i play better than Phil Ivey? No probably not. But it doesn't mean i'm not capable of making better decisions than him at times.

[Smoothcall]

I agree they edit alot out. But i think we see enough on this particualr hand to say this play by Ivey is highly questionable to say the least.

[einbert]

The point I was trying to make is, high level poker has a lot of variables involved (you are a LHE poker player, so you should understand this at least to some degree).

To question the play, considering that you have sufficient context and maybe an explanation from Phil as to why he made it, would be one thing. To say "it was a donkey play" when you saw a two hour edited version of the final table with only a few dozen hands, is just pointless IMO.

But yeah, you definitely have the right to judge his plays as you see fit. But I have the right to judge your judgements of his plays and post my own analysis of the situation, too.

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Btw i think he makes a mistake trying to move bellande off a hand with the small amount of chips phil has. And bellande's obvious willingness to get involved.

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Well Bellande openlimped in EP. Depending on just how Bellande and the rest of the table has been playing, he might have done that with 87s or 22.

[AngryCola]

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Btw when you watch sports and you favorite team screws up the game by something that looked obvious to you that they shouldn't have done do you 2nd guess the move? Or no because all your friends will flame you for daring to 2nd guess a professional athlete or managers play on a given instance? Isn't this why this forum is here to discuss hands we see on tv that are interesting, informative, and or controversial?

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You get to see virtually everything that happens in the major televised sports, so one has a lot more information to work with. Obviously that is not the case with most televised poker. Each situation in poker can be very unique, and the context of the current moment is very important. Without that context, some moves are very difficult for us viewers to accurately analyze.

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bellande's obvious willingness to get involved.

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Again, I'm really not sure how willing he was. He had let Ivey take at least one pot from him without much of a fight. I got the impression that he was mostly trying to stay out of Ivey's way for as long as he could.

But that's just a guess on my part, because I don't have enough context from the boring hands. Still, I don't think Ivey would have tried that if he hadn't seen Bellande limp from EP and fold to a raise more than once.

[curtains]

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I agree they edit alot out. But i think we see enough on this particualr hand to say this play by Ivey is highly questionable to say the least.

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How many chips did Phil have exactly? I had a hard time figuring it out, and thus didn't dare to make an opinion on his play without knowing all the details.

[Smoothcall]

Yes i agree high limit poker has many variables. And agree Phil's thinking is probably close to in line of what you were thinking. That bellande limps in with weak hands and folds to raises. But i just think 1) Phil doesn't have enough chips to attempt this play and get away with it. 2)Bellande limped in 1st position. He could also possibly have astrong hand, although maybe phil got a read he wasn't 3)I think there are better spots to get themoney in then there. I mean you got jenifer harman to your right. Why not move in utg at some point. This has a better chance of working since jennifer is probably the tightest player at the table and phil looks stronger coming in 1st posiiton. He also might pick up a hand somewhere along the line. Or at least a hand that has a fighting chance if called.

I didn't say it was a donkey play. I said did i mioss something because it looks like a donkey play. It is possible for a good player to make donkey plays on occasion. Some act like these guys aren't human. And i don't need to hear phil ivey's testimony to make my observation. What are these guys the president and i'm jeapordizing national security or something? I don't understand why it is so taboo to question a play of big name poker players. Are we afraind of hurting there feelings [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. Gimme a break. I doubt they are that thinskinned. Except ofr Phil H and maybe danny. I was fortunate enough to make a final table on tv and i made a bonehead play or controversial play i wouldn't mind at all people posting it and saying they hated my play or whatever. And i would probably reply and admit eithe ri messed up(we all make mistakes sometimes) or defend my play if i feel i didn't. But don't see why people get offended but questioning there plays. Yeah you have the rigfht to judge my judgements and appreciate hearing your feedback. But you are wrong imo to have hostility towards me for my opinon about the hand. As you just agreed i have the right and thats what this forum is for to question and post controversial hands and such. So why the nedd to say i bet you can do better. You are better than phil I.? Thats all i'm trying to say.

[AngryCola]

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I don't understand why it is so taboo to question a play of big name poker players. Are we afraind of hurting there feelings . Gimme a break. I doubt they are that thinskinned. Except ofr Phil H and maybe danny. I was fortunate enough to make a final table on tv and i made a bonehead play or controversial play i wouldn't mind at all people posting it and saying they hated my play or whatever.

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I don't think it's wrong to question the big name's plays. But understand that without a complete picture, we're all just speculating. Since it is only speculation, you also have to understand that people are probably going to give Ivey the benefit of the doubt in this situation.