From SS...I want micro views.

You may be right.

It's like 4am and far too late/early for me to do the maths.

But when behind, we have to factor that AJ and KK detract from those 3outs as well.

[imported_The Vibesman]

Against a straightforward UTG+1 I play it the same way. If UTG+1 is very aggressive I find a checkraise on the flop or maybe the turn, for value.

grunch....

i check/call the river

all other streets are fine


edit: would appreciate a link to the original ss post... or even just pm it to me if you dont wanna spoil discussion

[SlantNGo]

[ QUOTE ]
Do I need to bump the thread about betting into the preflop raiser again? I don't bet this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. Assuming the PFR bets AK or AQ here but only calls if I bet, what are you trying to accomplish by checking? Check/call then donk the turn? I'd rather lead both streets. Check/raise to bloat the pot?

Unlike many of the situations from the betting into PFR post, I think our hand here is quite strong against a typical raiser's range. This is not a situation where villain only raises a better hand. A PFR alone doesn't tell us too much, so we can't narrow it down like we could if there was a 3-bet.

If we are behind, we have 5 outs to catch up, and can easily make a profitable call back to us. We can call also on the turn, then check/fold on the river.

So I would play it as follows: Bet the flop. Keep betting until resistance is shown. If the PFR raises my flop bet, call, then check/call the turn. Check/fold the river unimproved. I'm counting on an unimproved overcard hand like AK or AQ not betting the river unless it makes a pair. Is this a bad assumption?

I fail to see why checking the flop is superior in this case.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do I need to bump the thread about betting into the preflop raiser again? I don't bet this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. Assuming the PFR bets AK or AQ here but only calls if I bet, what are you trying to accomplish by checking? Check/call then donk the turn? I'd rather lead both streets. Check/raise to bloat the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say you bet and villain raises. Do you donk-fold the turn? Or check-fold? Or check-call? Checking allows him to gain a free card with his flop raise if he did it with overcards. Donking the turn faces you with the unhappy prospect of getting raised again, and probably having the worst hand, but feeling the need to call down because you have a decent hand. Check-folding is bad because you may have enough outs and the right pot odds to peel.

[ QUOTE ]
So I would play it as follows: Bet the flop. Keep betting until resistance is shown. If the PFR raises my flop bet, call, then check/call the turn. Check/fold the river unimproved. I'm counting on an unimproved overcard hand like AK or AQ not betting the river unless it makes a pair. Is this a bad assumption?

I fail to see why checking the flop is superior in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking the flop is better because it gives you a better turn/river line.

[SlantNGo]

Can you post the SS thread? I'm interested in reading the discussion in there.

[SCfuji]

do we get any reads?

should i be worried if i think the river card needs to be more threatening than an off 4 for us to sneak in a 'value' bet?

Link to the SS post.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=5#Post4092367

ty ^_^

*grunch*

I agree with the preflop cold-call.

I would lead this flop. I like the lead for two reasons: 1) it's possible this is a value bet--the range of hands to which you are behind is fairly narrow; 2) it defines your hand and gives you better information. If UTG+1 raises still (which seems fairly reasonable to assume), I'd call. It is just not that likely that a 3-bet will really protect your hand--even if UTG+1 will raise with AK UI. That is, with the BB and MP1 (who cold-called) still in the hand, the 3-bet is unlikely to protect your hand, and if any of these players does hold AA-JJ, or AJ (or the somewhat unlikely but still possible J6), you are just giving money away.

Having done that, I'd check-call the turn and river. I have no idea what this river bet is supposed to represent, as it certainly is not an effective bluff.