Is this standard? I continuously feel lost - two hands

spamuell · #1 05-13-2005, 09:31 AM

Hand 1:

The table was a pretty passive one, I didn't have any player reads yet.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.40 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (3.70 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, Button folds.

River: (5.70 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets

Hand 2:

My opponent hasn't done anything notable yet. I'm always torn about the whole check-with outs thing, on the one hand getting check-raised is obviously bad but on the other, there's no indication that my opponent has any piece of the flop and he'll often just check-fold the turn, is this an easy bet (I'm unsure because my turn aggression is too high according to PT)?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets

Thanks.

Jeff W · #2 05-13-2005, 09:45 AM

Hand 2: Betting the turn is good. Don't blindly apply ideas like "check with outs."

Hand 1: My inner Bob Ciaffone is telling me to check-fold this, but I may be out of tune with the psyche of the 5/10 unknown right now.

spamuell · #3 05-13-2005, 09:50 AM

Thanks for the reply Jeff.

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Hand 1: My inner Bob Ciaffone is telling me to check-fold this

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Which street?

Jeff W · #4 05-13-2005, 09:55 AM

I'm really digging myself deeper here...but the river. There aren't many hands that call the turn, bet the river and we have beat. Additionally, there are few weaker hands that can call a river bet.

Warning: Something in the back of my mind is telling me that I'm wrong and you have a bet-fold here. I would like to hear what others think.

stigmata · #5 05-13-2005, 10:12 AM

On hand 1, yeah I can't see what villain could have that you beat. The table is described as passive, so I almost think a check-fold is in order here: What is he going to bet that you have beaten? If you have to know that you are beaten, then bet-fold is a better alternative than check-call - he is only going to bet things that you have beaten, but he will check things that you beat. Kinda like a -EV value bet, but at least you get to look him up....

Hand 2 is perfect, if he check-raises then that's life. Call and fold/raise river. You can't go around giving out free cards for the villain to hit his rag and take your pot.

spamuell · #6 05-13-2005, 10:23 AM

On hand 1, yeah I can't see what villain could have that you beat.

Well he could have a worse 7 or 55 or 66 but yeah not much. Looking more at it, yeah I think I can check-fold this river. If a club hadn't fallen, do you think a check-call is preferable in case a missed flush draw is bluffing? I'm ridiclously worried about being bluffed out on the river.

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Hand 2 is perfect, if he check-raises then that's life. Call and fold/raise river. You can't go around giving out free cards for the villain to hit his rag and take your pot.

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That's what I thought and how I always play these hands but my turn agg is way too high in PT (like 4) and I have no idea where I'm going wrong.

stigmata · #7 05-13-2005, 10:35 AM

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Well he could have a worse 7 or 55 or 66 but yeah not much.

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The chance that he actually has one of these hands + the chance that a passive 5/10 player would actually bet them is extremely small, and your probably not being offered those odds.

If the river wasn't a club a check-call might be in order.

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turn agg is way too high in PT (like 4)

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Crikey, how many hands is that over? Is your flop aggression also very high?

spamuell · #8 05-13-2005, 11:24 AM

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turn agg is way too high in PT (like 4)

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Crikey, how many hands is that over? Is your flop aggression also very high?

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Over about 15k hands now, yeah the flop agg is about the same. And in these 15k hands I've had a 150BB downswing and two 100BB downswings, even though I'm winning overall at 1.6BB/100 (which before yesterday was like 2BB/100, so it's all meaningless at this stage). I'm worried, but I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

marand · #9 05-13-2005, 12:16 PM

Hand 1:
I like the flop bet, but I would usually check/fold the turn. Not a very drawy board and 2 people called.
Perhaps that's too weak, not sure. I would definately not bet the river. I would check/fold the river since you really don't catch a bluff often enough for it to be profitable to call here. He either had an ace or was on a draw, in either case your hand is not good. The chance that he has a smaller pair and bets the river is not worth the call.

Hand 2:
I would usually bet the turn here. Especially against those players who often call on the flop with crap but fold on the turn. If you know that the player is tight on the flop and loves to check/raise the turn you should check behind, but I think most players does not fit this description.

Erik W · #10 05-13-2005, 02:20 PM

First hand a little out of topic.
I feel getting raised on turn is more often a bluff than
getting raised on the river.

Is that how you others sees it too?

Why bluff river when you can bluff turn and save 1 BB if
called.

To maximize profit with ace u just wait and raise until the river in this case HU. No need to raise before.