Pocket Sticks and scary board

dowlinga · #1 02-08-2003, 02:11 PM

This is a 3-6 game at the Stardust in Vegas. The table is all local players, most of which seem to play pretty well. I'm just in town for the day, so have never played with any of them before.

I raise UTG with A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

I get 2 MP limper and 2 LP limpers. All others fold.

Flop: A [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

I lead with a bet. 2 MP and 1 LP fold and the other calls. Heads up now.

Turn: Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] [A [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]]

I bet, other player raises. I know he has the straight. I call.

River: 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] [Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]]

I check and call to see his K [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] giving the Ace high straight.

In hindsight I feel like I should have reraised on the turn to make him think I had the flush, but I’m not sure what that would have done for me. If he had simply called, then what? He didn't seem to be a very aggressive player, nor am I sure he would have folded his straight.
Was this just a situation to suck it up and check call to the river, like I did? Anyone think I should have folded? Or should I have played it more aggressively? Any advice on plays pre-flop through the river would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Ashley

Clarkmeister · #2 02-08-2003, 02:26 PM

"most of which seem to play pretty well"

and

"I raise UTG ..... and LP (cold-calls)"

and

"The flop is Ac Jc Tc, I bet and LP calls"

"LP shows Ks Js"

K, now my question:

Do you really think they 'play pretty well'?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking your assessment. But at first blush these locals DO appear to play pretty well. But this hand is a great example of why they lose money. The single most common leak among these locals is calling legitimate EP preflop raises with [censored] like AJo, KQo, KJs, etc. Then, once the flop comes, just how bad is his call? He can't possibly think that spiking 2 pair is going to win. He can't possibly expect that hitting a queen gives him the full pot (since you can easily have AK here), and in fact he is screwed by redraws to flushes and full houses even if he does hit his 2 or 3 outer.

But he calls.

They don't play nearly as well as it first appears.

dowlinga · #3 02-08-2003, 02:44 PM

Yep, I completely agree. Actually when I said "most play pretty well" I was referring to the players who folded to my raise. The guy who took the pot was probably the weakest at the table. What can you do when these guys hit it?

Clarkmeister · #4 02-08-2003, 02:50 PM

"What can you do when these guys hit?"

Generally, nothing. Just like they can't do anything the majority of the time when they are donating to you. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

In this case, I would have probabaly folded the river, though if he was particularly aggressive, I may have called.

lil' · #5 02-08-2003, 02:50 PM

Anybody who called two bets cold and chased a gutshot and made it wasn't going to fold no matter what you did. Just call and hope you catch one of your outs on the river. You were destined to take a bad beat here, unfortunately.

JTG51 · #6 02-09-2003, 01:01 AM

You say, "I bet, other player raises. I know he has the straight."

Then, "I check and call."

If you 'know' he has you beat, why'd you call the river?

"In hindsight I feel like I should have reraised on the turn to make him think I had the flush"

If you are sure he has a straight you definitely should not reraise the turn. A player that called for a gutshot on that flop isn't going to fold to a reraise once he hits his straight.

ActionBob · #7 02-09-2003, 01:23 AM

"If you are sure he has a straight you definitely should not reraise the turn. A player that called for a gutshot on that flop isn't going to fold to a reraise once he hits his straight."

A case can be made for raising based on the information here. Agreed that the opponent isn't going to fold to a reraise with his staight but if you are certain he will not three-bet *and* you have decided to call the river anyway (as was done above), then raising may be the best option. You could get an extra bet in when you fill up (as he may very well just check and call the river when the board pairs had you not reraised) yet its still the same 2 bets when you dont fill.

-ActionBob

JTG51 · #8 02-09-2003, 01:29 AM

...yet its still the same 2 bets when you dont fill.

Remember, the opponent is last to act.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that the opponent won't bet the river when checked to if the board doesn't pair.

ActionBob · #9 02-09-2003, 01:47 AM

Good point, I misread the action.

-ActionBob

Ed Miller · #10 02-09-2003, 05:58 AM

A case can be made for raising based on the information here. Agreed that the opponent isn't going to fold to a reraise with his staight but if you are certain he will not three-bet *and* you have decided to call the river anyway (as was done above), then raising may be the best option.

I think people misunderstand this play... I've seen people suggest it in inappropriate circumstances several times recently. In order for the play to be correct, there are several conditions:

1) You have position
2) You think your hand might be good, but aren't sure
3) You can (and will) fold to another raise or a river bet
4) You think that your raise has a chance to fold a better hand

In this case, basically none of the four conditions is met. This play is not appropriate here.