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  #1  
Old 07-10-2004, 05:32 AM
Oblivious Oblivious is offline
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Default Neighbor wasnt protecting his cards... i feel so dirty. (long)

Just got back from my best ever B&M session.

Im sitting in seat 6, and a guy comes to sit in seat 5. He asks the guy in seat 4 if he can smoke. Seat 4 says "put your cigarette over there [next to me]." So I ask to be changed to seat 1 as the hand is being dealt. As seat 5 checks his cards, i notice he makes almost no effort to protect them. Im already in the process of moving, so it looks like i might miss out on an opportunity. I sit in seat 1 for about two hands. Meanwhile the dealer gets pushed, and my former seat is filled by a new comer. I tell a little white lie to the new dealer: "I requested a seat change, to move to seat 6." She says the new player has already played a hand there, so he would have to agree to trade me. He does, and I pull the bill of my cap down a bit and put on a pair of sunglasses before i take my 6 seat.

This guy was really bad. He played any two suited, and any ace from any position. He was also willing to play just about any offsuit connector. It was interesting seeing his hand when I was dealt a hand that i would normally fold anyway. If i got J9s in early/middle position, he'd be calling right ahead of me with JTo.

Since I play so tight, we werent involved in that many hands together, but there were a couple of interesting ones. I see him limp in EP, but miss the clear view of his cards. It looks like he has something like 98o, 97o, or 87o. I have AJo and limp along also. Flop is J93 and its checked to me. He plays very passively on the flop and ive seen him check top pairs with weak kickers. Right now I think he checking middle pair. I bet the max ($5) and get two callers. Turn is a 9, uhhoh. He checks to me and I check along. Hes not a very frequent checkraiser, but I was certainly worried about it in this situation. River is a T for a board of J939T. He checks and i think, maybe he doesnt have that 9, so i bet just to get checkraised. He has 87o, and rivered an inside straight. This was the last time I made a mistake against him though.

I see him limp UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I have KhJd and have a pretty tight table image. The table is playing passively and somewhat tight at this particular moment, so I raise. The flop is 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and he has an outside straight draw. He of course checks to me and I bet to continue my preflop play and hopefully make other overcards fold. He calls and the turn is the Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. He checks and again I bet and he calls(we're heads up by this time). The river is the T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] completing his straight, but also putting 4 hearts on the board. I check to see if i have a heart and i do. He bets out and i raise him, he 3 bets to $15 and I reraise to $20. He sounds frustrated when he calls I show him my second nut flush. Im worried this hand might have been suspicious to certain observant players at the table. Im sure they put him on the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] when he 3-bet. What would have tipped me off to 4-bet with the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? BTW 6 bets is the cap. Maybe they just wrote me off as a maniac.

I also suspect that one of the dealers noticed me sneaking a peak. His eyes were on me when i was looking, and Im sure he could see the direction of my eyes, since my shades werent opaque. He didnt say anything to me or seat 5, and I watched for him to whisper something to the dealer that was pushing him, but he didnt. If he saw me, he must have just written it off as seat 5 being irresponsible and not protecting his hand.

On another hand, he had 86o and I limped with AT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. The flop was 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He bet out and i had odds to call so i did. The turn was the Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and he checked to me. I bet and got a bunch of callers including him. The river was the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] completing his straight. He bet out and I considered what to do. I figured any other sixes out there would call my raise cold, and I didnt wand everyone to just fold behind me if i smoothcalled. So I raised. Unfortunatly I got only one caller: seat 5, but im sure it was the right move. In this particular hand, it didnt matter that i knew he had made his straight, since i had the nuts anyway.

On other occasions i knew when he was playing a naked ace and the suit of that ace against my wired pair. It allowed me to stay aggressive with no A on the board.

In the whole session I won over $300, but think only $20-40 was due to the fact that i could see his cards. So who has opinions? Am I going to poker hell?
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  #2  
Old 07-10-2004, 10:24 AM
mrpurple mrpurple is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Buffalo NY
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Default Re: Neighbor wasnt protecting his cards... i feel so dirty. (long)

Hey, its his own fault. I'm paraphrasing Bob Ciaphone from one of his books here.. Your neighbors cards are like a womens cleavage. If you can get a peek without being obvious or straining your neck its ok. I don't even consider this slightly immoral.
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  #3  
Old 07-10-2004, 02:34 PM
SheridanCat SheridanCat is offline
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Default Re: Neighbor wasnt protecting his cards... i feel so dirty. (long)

I usually give one warning, and then I'm happy to look. I did this one evening at Mandalay Bay with a kid who had never played in a casino before. I showed him how to look at his cards without exposing them to me.

A couple hands later he's exposing again, and I used it to my advantage.

The one time I didn't give a warning was the only time I've seen a player in a NLHE tournament exposing cards. This was the Mirage Sunday tournament, so the buy-in is fairly large. I figured anyone playing in that tournament really should be able to look at their cards without a warning from me. So, I put on my shades and looked until the table broke.

Regards,

T
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  #4  
Old 07-10-2004, 04:11 PM
spamuell spamuell is offline
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Default Re: Neighbor wasnt protecting his cards... i feel so dirty. (long)

You'd make more money and feel better about yourself if you learned how to play poker well rather than going out of your way to take advantage of unsuspecting victims.
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  #5  
Old 07-10-2004, 04:27 PM
Oblivious Oblivious is offline
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Default Re: Neighbor wasnt protecting his cards... i feel so dirty. (long)

I dont need to look at unprotected cards to win. Im a very proficient player.
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  #6  
Old 07-10-2004, 04:31 PM
Oblivious Oblivious is offline
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Default Re: Neighbor wasnt protecting his cards... i feel so dirty. (long)

I too got exposed hand advice from my first strategy book. It was ken warren (forgive me), and he said you should look at your hand first to see if youre even going to play. If you are going to play, you should take a look at your opponents hand. This doesnt always work out practically, especially when your opponent is on your right and he checks his hole cards as he gets them. I did manage to find a posture where i could check his as I was checking mine.
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  #7  
Old 07-10-2004, 06:10 PM
SossMan SossMan is offline
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Default Re: Neighbor wasnt protecting his cards... i feel so dirty. (long)

[ QUOTE ]
It looks like he has something like 98o, 97o, or 87o.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
River is a T for a board of J939T. He checks and i think, maybe he doesnt have that 9, so i bet just to get checkraised. He has 87o, and rivered an inside straight. This was the last time I made a mistake against him though.


[/ QUOTE ]

This might be the worst river bet / payoff in recent memory. Why, exactly didn't you check behind on the river?
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  #8  
Old 07-10-2004, 06:45 PM
spamuell spamuell is offline
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Default Re: Neighbor wasnt protecting his cards... i feel so dirty. (long)

[ QUOTE ]
Im a very proficient player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't doubt it but I do have some comments on your play.

[ QUOTE ]
It looks like he has something like 98o, 97o, or 87o. I have AJo and limp along also.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why no raise? Also, as Sossman pointed out, this is the WORST river bet in history and then you called the checkraise!

[ QUOTE ]
The river is the T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] completing his straight, but also putting 4 hearts on the board. I check to see if i have a heart and i do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why hadn't you checked when there were three hearts on board on the turn? Also, no-one is going be overly suspicious if you go four bets with the second nut flush against a guy like this.

[ QUOTE ]
On another hand, he had 86o and I limped with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] . The flop was 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He bet out and i had odds to call so i did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you had odds to call! Why do you feel the need to justify this? You have two overcards and the nut flush draw as well as a higher straight redraw if the straight gets there and your flush doesn't.

It's actions and remarks like these which make me doubt your proficiency. Furthermore, I really think it's sneaky to deliberately move seats to look at someone's hands, give them no warning that they are exposing their cards and then take advantage of this. And then you have the audacity to post this on a messageboard seeking conformation that your actions were ethical and this is what people do in poker. Well you're not going to get it from me, I think your actions were wrong and that you know this. This is why I suggested that you can improve your winrate through playing better poker rather than through dishonesty and inappropriate behaviour.
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  #9  
Old 07-10-2004, 11:00 PM
BassMasterK BassMasterK is offline
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Default Re: Neighbor wasnt protecting his cards... i feel so dirty. (long)

I'll give someone a warning first, and I never position myself physically in an unnormal position in an attempt to see someones cards. But if they insist on playing them where I can see them after they have been warned...well, that's on them. To tell the truth I don't like seeing cards because I don't want someone else to accuse me of trying to peek if they see my eyes on someone else's hand who is exposing their cards in my direction.

I don't know if your going to the hot place because of it, but you might not want to brag about it while talking to Saint Peter at the gates.
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  #10  
Old 07-11-2004, 12:15 AM
kskillz kskillz is offline
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Default Re: Neighbor wasnt protecting his cards... i feel so dirty. (long)

Hey Oblivious,

I'm assuming you play in Blackhawk, where do you go? The Lodge, Mountain High? What do you think of Colorado's 2-5 spread limit? I play at the Mountain High myself, just wanted to see what opinions were of The Lodge.

As for the exposed cards, I don't feel like you have any obligation to be nice and pretend you can't see. Take every advantage you can... I like the cleavage comparision....
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