200 NL Buy-in What happened here?

[maranello11]

Party Poker 1-2 NL 200 buy-in. I have played a few orbits now and I have seen AA once already no showdown I took the pot on the turn. Table views me as somewhat loose since I have been up in down in my play

I am MP with AA. UTG+2 makes it 9. I call and the button call. We all have around 200. I dont have a read on the button he sat down an orbit ago. UTG is basic player. I put him on KK or QQ looking to trap him with my AA. Not sure what button has maybe 1010

Flop is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 32 in the pot
UTG+2 bets 20. I make it 40 hoping you thinks I have AJ or K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and looking to get the flush draw away from the button.
Button raises to 115. UTG+2 thinks for a few minutes and goes all-in. Whats my play?

[authority11]

I'm definitely pushing here. You're only losing to JJ as i doubt they woulda come in preflop with 33 or 44.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm definitely pushing here. You're only losing to JJ as i doubt they woulda come in preflop with 33 or 44.

[/ QUOTE ]

why wouldn't they come in with 33 or 44?

[sting]

The raiser wouldn't but if I was the caller, I sure would come in with 44 or 33

[Ilovephysics]

Ace of diamonds out there, or do you hold it?

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
The raiser wouldn't but if I was the caller, I sure would come in with 44 or 33

[/ QUOTE ]

right. it sounded like he was implying that neither of these players would have 33/44.

to the OP...you probably have the PF raiser beat (who likely has KK), but someone reraising after a continuation bet and a min-raise (terrible, btw) almost definitely has a 1 pair hand beat. this is a clear fold IMO.

EDIT: i figured i should expand on why i think your minraise was terrible. the purposes for raising are:

1) thin the field - your minraise isn't going to do this any more than if you had just called

2) get information - you know the approx range of the PF raiser's hand, so you don't need info from him. the PF raiser's bet will work just as well to get info about the last guy's hand and your min-raise doesn't add anything.

3) win the pot - but the purpose of trapping PF was to get the stack of a hand that you dominate. why try to win it here when PF raiser will continue betting your hand for you.

4) build the pot - raising the minimum builds the pot more slowly than a real raise and gives away the same amount of info.

so basically, your minraise didn't accomplish anything that a raise is supposed to do, it gave away that you have a "strong" hand, and ended up costing you more money when you fold to the raise and push that comes back to you.

[bigt439]

This is more of a question for maranello, but it is not directed just at him, but more generally at the forum collectively. I find that a lot of people make very bizarre assumptions on some of these hands that really oversimplify the hand. In your post you say you put the preflop raiser on KK or QQ. HOW? He made a standard raise from UTG+2, unless you have the most extensive of notes on this player there is absolutely no way you can narrow down his hand range that well. And then you say a smooth call by the button probably means he has TT? That is one of the most arbitrary reads I have ever seen. Even when swolfe replied he said the preflop raiser probably had KK. Now granted there is more information when swolfe makes this read, and it is a very possible hand for him to hold, but there are so many hands he could make this move with that I'm not sure that singling out just one is good for analyzing this hand. I know this kind of seems like a rant, and I don't intend that. No disrespect to either poster, especially swolfe because I've seen some good posts by him, I just don't like how a lot of these posts put people on such specific hands. Alot of people respond to these hands as if everyone playing them has the skill of an average 2+2er and they don't. Not even close. Most people that play the 1/2 game are just flat out bad. Now they're bad for many different reasons, but my point is that they do not have to have the hands you would have making the same move. I guess this is just a general reminder that you have to keep an open-mind when analyzing these hands and remember you're not playing against yourself, and almost never someone better than you, so consider what they would do in that situastion. This is why reads are so important, and should be posted much more frequently with hands. As for this hand fold, you're beat too often to call, and when you are ahead its not by much. The min raise is ugly, but I guess you know that by now.

[maranello11]

I understand what you are saying about the min-raise. I usually do not do that but for some reason I did. Anyways I thought for a while and I called. Im not sure why I called maybe because I had AA. Not sure. I knew I had the original raiser beat. I felt the button was on a flush draw. I just did not see a set there. I just did not think you had one. Turn was a blank river was a 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTg+2 shows KK and button doesnt show. I look at his hand in the handhistory he has 56 offsuit. Was it a bad call or was I right in calling? Even if I was losing to 33 or 44

[swolfe]

i'm saying that KK is likely when the action gets back to Hero because the PF raiser calls the all-in from MP. he's only going to do that with AA/KK/maybe QQ and definitely JJ in this case.

the reraiser may have JJ/33/44 a 34 two pair or some sort of monster draw (which would be a favorite over a single pair hand). i'm pretty sure he has something better than a one pair hand...you often don't see large reraises after a bet and raise without a big hand.

i would have probably reraised PF to get it heads up and tried to trap post-flop, but given the way it was played, i would have called the original bet and mucked after LP raises and PF raiser pushes for the reasons i mention above.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
I look at his hand in the handhistory he has 56 offsuit. Was it a bad call or was I right in calling? Even if I was losing to 33 or 44

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh, well...if i knew he was a donk (like he obviously was), then it's a call, but against a non-donk opponent, it's a muck.

Add that button guy to your fish list...

although...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=889182
pokenum -h ac as - kh ks - 5c 6d -- 3d 4h jd
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing Jd 3d 4h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac 496 54.93 407 45.07 0 0.00 0.549
Ks Kh 58 6.42 845 93.58 0 0.00 0.064
5c 6d 349 38.65 554 61.35 0 0.00 0.386

he did have +EV equity if he knew that it was going to be 3-way...