I'm back - 88 in the BB

[JrJordan]

Reads: Button is normally very loose passive and calls down with any sort of hand. Lately he's been tilting though and got caught 3-bettng K8 vs my AA in the SB, and called down UI with it. He's raised 3 of the last 5-6 hands. SB is a TAG, and likely notices the way Button has been playing recently. He's open raised the button vs. me and called my PF 3bet, folded the 3diamond flop.


Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) hand converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (10 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 10 BB

[JrJordan]

I'll give my thought process on the hand to see if this adds some discussion.

Preflop: There's a decent enough chance that SB is 3-betting lightly for me to have equity here and the chance of button having a big hand is minimal with the current read. Getting an immediate 3.5:1 with a solid hand, plus having position on the PF 3-bettor I feel makes this a go.

Flop: Looks like a pretty good flop for me. SB is betting out with any two given my read. A raise could be in order here, however there's a good chance button cold calls lightly and it will make it very hard to play this hand leading OOP. I decide to call, expecting an overcall from button and reevaluate on the turn.

Turn: Had the turn been an A or Q I'd likely fold to a follow-up SB bet. With a relative rag hitting, I'm getting 7:1 to call SB's turn bet. Again, SB is probably overcalling with a wide variety of hands, so if I want to see a showdown here it seems the best way to play it is a turn raise with a free showdown option should button fold. If SB were to donk the river after a turn raise, I'd be tempted to call simply from the pot size and the possible missed diamond draw.

With 7BB in the pot with me to act on the turn, does it seem reasonable to find a way to showdown given my description?

[jba]

I like the way you played this given your reads. I sort of want to cap preflop

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however there's a good chance button cold calls lightly

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[KDawgCometh]

I like the play overall. I think given your read, that there might be some value to be strongly considered in betting the river. He could have a king or a higher PP, but given his play and your read, that doesn't seem likely with his play

[JrJordan]

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I like the play overall. I think given your read, that there might be some value to be strongly considered in betting the river.

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He was a decent player overall with standard hand reading abilities. I really don't see what he could call a river bet with that I beat. Seems like 44 or 55 are the only ones. I'd say there's a more likely chance of a river bet causing a higher PP like 99 or TT to fold than to get value from 44/55. In both cases that chance is near nil, so checking seems to be the best option.

[Xhiggy]

I think raising the flop is in definite order. While I normally would cap preflop, given the button you described, I think calling is okay.
The fact that the button cold calls lightly should make the flop raise easier, not harder. If he does manage to catch his 3 or 6 outs, then oh well, you still will make more in the long run. (And when the button cold calls, you can give a lot more credibility to a SB 3bet). Also, I think you missed a bit of value from this hand and perhaps by raising the flop and then firing the turn and river (depending on what hits, assuming SB shows no more aggression) is probably the way to go.

The way you played it makes the button play his hand perfectly.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

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I like the play overall. I think given your read, that there might be some value to be strongly considered in betting the river.

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He was a decent player overall with standard hand reading abilities. I really don't see what he could call a river bet with that I beat. Seems like 44 or 55 are the only ones. I'd say there's a more likely chance of a river bet causing a higher PP like 99 or TT to fold than to get value from 44/55. In both cases that chance is near nil, so checking seems to be the best option.

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The river only LOOKS like a good place to bet, but the truth is the opposite. I can't think of any reason to bet this river.

[jba]

man you need work on your table selection, i just sat at one of your tables thinkin you'd found some fish, boy was I wrong

[JrJordan]

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man you need work on your table selection, i just sat at one of your tables thinkin you'd found some fish, boy was I wrong

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Agreed, for tonight anyway. Seemed like any time I found a table it dried up. Called it a night early because I was getting frustrated finding some good tables. That, and getting donk bet/3bet on by a turned flush draw only to hit on the river.

Has anyone else noticed that the games really aren't that juicy lately on a super late Saturday night? I'm finding my favorite loose-passives to be on a bit earlier.

[JrJordan]

Some nice thoughts, let's evaluate them.

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I think raising the flop is in definite order. While I normally would cap preflop, given the button you described, I think calling is okay.
The fact that the button cold calls lightly should make the flop raise easier, not harder. If he does manage to catch his 3 or 6 outs, then oh well, you still will make more in the long run. (And when the button cold calls, you can give a lot more credibility to a SB 3bet).

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An argument could be made for raising this flop, however I'm against it for a few reasons. First, we have a very vulnerable hand that even if it's ahead right now probably doesn't have much equity due to the variety of draws, overcards, and paired K's possibilities. Since I'm confident Button is cold calling with a large range of hands, this puts me in quite the predicament down the road. Any diamond or overcard to my 8's is going to be very tough to play when I have initiative. I'd likely have to bet the turn again with very little folding equity and reevaluate on the river once more to whether I can even see a showdown. The problem with raising this flop is that we're almost always obligated to follow up on the turn when again our equity is negligable. We'd like to get to showdown as cheaply and safely as possible in this hand, not pump the pot.


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Also, I think you missed a bit of value from this hand and perhaps by raising the flop and then firing the turn and river (depending on what hits, assuming SB shows no more aggression) is probably the way to go.

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Again, all we have is a pair of 8's. We don't have a lot of value in here, we're simply trying to efficiently take a semi-bloated pot when there's a decent chance we're ahead. FWIW, there's almost no range of hands that SB can call a bet on the river and I still beat. Button, however would call down with A-high UI.

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The way you played it makes the button play his hand perfectly.

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That's ok, especially because there's 2 people in the pot. The question is did I play my hand perfectly, not the button. Raising the flop (and forcing button to possibly make a mistake by cold calling) will most likely lead to me making a bigger mistake than him when I have to make very tough turn and river decisions.