King Yao "Weighing the Odds"

[King Yao]

Here is a link to a response I made back in June 24th. Looking back, that date was my 10th wedding anniversary. I hope I wasn't online all day long.

Link to response about DIPO in June

[SlantNGo]

Wow. Just wow. WOHEP is, in my opinion, the best poker book I have ever read. SSH scratches the surface, corrects common misconceptions, and was quite a groundbreaker in terms of the style of play it recommends. WOHEP is a groundbreaker in terms of opening up the thought process of a poker player.

If you've read and really understood TOP and HEPFAP well, I can see why you think you have nothing to benefit from this book, although I still think the extensive amount of tables and calculations provided is a good read (i.e. calculating the break-even point of taking a free card vs. just calling on the flop & turn).

I like the presentation as well. While it's not as easy a read as SSH (which was an absolute joy to read), I find it much easier to read than TOP and HEPFAP, which I had to force myself to read through. I feel that WOHEP offers an excellent introduction to the style of thinking a player should possess in order for him to understand the concepts presented in TOP. I won't comment on HEPFAP because I still haven't gotten halfway through that.

And on DIPO, it is a fairly complex method compared to memorizing odds for common situations, but I think the main benefit to it is that it attempts to quantify implied odds. Currently, I think, "Okay, I'm getting 8:1, and my odds to hit my gutshot are 10.5:1, so I can probably call with implied odds, as long as I can make back 2.5 SB later on in the hand". Using DIPO, I would think, "The pot is currently 8 SB. Based on the flop betting, I can expect a bet and call on the turn before me, so the expected pot size is 12 SB. 12 * 4 = 48 > (47 - 4) so I should call confidently."

Finally, an EV calculation is presented with just about every situation. For a limit player who's read SSH, WOHEP answers the question "Why?", shows you in an EV calculation, and furthermore, quantizes what type of adjustment you should make against a different type of player. I am very satisfied by my purchase and look forward to more from King.

[checkmate36]

Im glad I purchased the book. It has helped me to understand some topics that I was not clear on.

[Your Mom]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here is my "review"!

Disclaimer: I have to remind the reader that english is not my first language, so I cannot any subtle nuances to make my point.

So, here we go...

Chapter 1 - Who this book is for (p. 17)
"This book is for you if you want to think analytically and learn to become a better Limit Hold'em player"

Chapter 1 - The Evolution of the Hold'em Player
Hold'em Habilis
Hold'em Erectus
Hold'em Sapiens
Hold'em Brain

I don't know if this is a joke or not. For me this seems just ridiculous and dragging this book on the Poker for Dummies level. A scientific book should work without such flat cathegories. David Sklansky has written a much better essay on the subject in Sklansky on Poker (p. 33)

Chapter 2 - The Players
It is about different player types, profiling them and drawing conclusions, conclusions like "Against players who are observant and adjust their play based on your play, you can vary your play to keep them off guard." Really? So we should use deception, but how do we do this? Any guidelines any tricks? Game Theory maybe? Of course not!
Overall this chapter is describing the obvious with a little bit of wisdom added from the various Poker Essays by Mason Malmuth and Theory of Poker.

Chapter 3 - EV
Nothing new here. If you have Tournament Poker for Advanced Players or SSHE, you can skip this chapter entirely.

Chapter 4 - Outs
Nothing new here either. If you have Hold'em Poker or SSHE, you can skip this as well.

Chapter 5 - Pot Odds
Nothing new here....am I repeating myself? Theory of Poker and SSHE have this covered, so no need to repeat what is well known already. DIPO is an attempt to provide something unique, but unfortunately others have pointed out already, that it is rather worthless.

Chapter 6 - Position
7 pages about why having position is good in Hold'em. Don't expect anything that makes you say "Wow! I was not aware of that".

Up to that point, we have already covered 100 pages of the book, 100 down - 250 to go.

Chapter 7 - 11 (50 pages)
Another repetition of the concepts that should be familiar to everyone from Theory of Poker, HEFAP and Hold'em Poker.

Something that stuck on me was "How often should you bluff" (p. 128). The author comes to the conclusion that something like 10% may be wrong, especially if you get called all the time. Basically there is zero information except that the author doesn't know it himself. I suggest to read page 166 in Theory of Poker.

Chapter 12 - Starting Hand Selection
It starts off with card combinations and a few all-in odds. I don't know what the purpose of this is because this is about Limit Hold'em and all-in is rather rare in this scenario. Also it is well known that computer simulations can lead to questionable results. At least it ends with the conclusion that starting hands can change in value.

Next follows some sort of playbook. The recommendations differ from the classical Sklansky Hand Groupings, so it is up to reader if he wants to give it a shot or not.

Whenever I read about detailed hand recommendations I get reminded of the quote in Ace on the River: "No need to be precise when you don't even know what you are talking about".

Chapter 13-15
42 pages to cover the play from the flop to the river!

Chapter 16
20 pages on hand reading with a small excerpt from Super System on double gut shot draws.

Chapter 17-18
30 pages on shorthanded play. Lots of general advice and almost nothing on heads-up play. I guess I prefer HEFAP on this subject.

Chapter 19
20 pages on Online Poker which also fall into the cathegory of general advice.

Chapter 20
20 pages on other topics like the "Monty Hall Problem". I switch to Door 3!

Honestly, I don't know what you expect from a book, but I expect more. Maybe I am too much of a 2+2 fanboi and my standards for quality may be too high for the average mortal to meet, I can't tell. All I can say is that if you have read the major 2+2 publications, then you simply don't need this book. If your background consists of stuff like WLLHE, it could be a welcome addition to your library /shrug

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but your review sucks. Somebody writes a chapter on pot odds and you say skip it, this is covered elsewhere. That's like saying, I went to church and someone said something about God so I left because I've already read the Bible.

[illogical]

[ QUOTE ]
Im glad I purchased the book. It has helped me to understand some topics that I was not clear on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Weighing The Odds has helped me more than any other poker book for limit hold'em. The shorthand section puts this book ahead of Holdem For Advanced Players, IMO. I purchased SSHE but haven't had time to read it yet.

I don't use DIPO for online play but it seems like a good system to use during live play to keep track of the pot and odds. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[colgin]

Shandrax,

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. However, the way you present your review I think is very misleading and just shows your bias against the book. For example, you say:

[ QUOTE ]
Chapter 13-15
42 pages to cover the play from the flop to the river!

[/ QUOTE ]

The clear implication here is that out of a 250+ page book there is only 42 pages on post-flop play. This is nonsense. There is a great deal of substantive strategic and tactical advice on post-flop play covered in other chapters of the book that preceed and follow these chapters (e.g., the material on the free card play and countering it). If you find this material weak (which I would disagree with) then fine; but there is a lot of substantive ground covered here and to suggest otherwise is just plain wrong.

As much as I personally like the Barry Greenstein book, I felt that it was a fair criticism (that some made) that there was less strategic advice on the play of poker hands in contrast to other aspects of being a poker pro. However, King Yao's book is loaded with content on playing hold 'em.

Personally I found his discussion of river play worth the price of the book alone. I could easily say that about numerous other chapters as well.

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Dave:

There actually is some new ground. I should be writing about it in our November and December Two Plus Two Internet Magazines. That's all I'll say for now.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool, I'll be looking for those.

Thanks,
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Dave

[Rudbaeck]

The difference being that Yao actually covers the math. That's really the entire difference between it and most 2+2 (and non 2+2) poker books. HEFAP only mentions that if an opponent is raising with 'many' hands you can play AQo against him. Yao gives you the cold hard numbers on how many 'many' is. See the difference?

Some math is covered in the 2+2 canon, and more is alluded to. But Yao lays it all out.

If you already played with PokerStove for many hours, read SSH, HEFAP, TOP and participated in the detailed and gory hand range discussions on these forums you'll find little new. On the other hand what little new information you dig up will by then most likely pay for the book and a bottle or twelve of 20 year old single malt whiskey. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[MicroBob]

nice post.


[ QUOTE ]
quantizes

[/ QUOTE ]


this is a word???

[amulet]

again, i liked the book. sklansky covers the possible hands and the math well in some of his other work.