preflop with KQs

[Guruman]

I'm semi-early on in a 7 table tourney. Blinds are $100/$200 and I have $1500 against several similar stacks and two who have about twice as much as me.

on the button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Everyone at the table limps in! (8 players at the table including me) I see that many blinds out there and the opportunity to really get ahead in this thing, so I push all in hoping to buy the blinds or get called by a weaker hand. this is a very passive table and I have a tight image with them thus far.

The table folds around (each player moaning in turn) to the CO who starts thinking about it. He looks at me, he looks at his cards, he looks at me again. He's got me covered by about $200, so if he calls and misses he's crippled.

Finally he calls with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I've got a couple of draws that he doesnt, but he's got me pretty dominated otherwise here.

Q:

Given the situation, was this push correct, or should I have put in a smaller raise in this spot? How often do pushes like this work against a field of passive opponents who all have limped in?

Thanks for the help!

[Aisthesis]

That's a weird one. I actually think I'd fold. It seems to me like you're effectively doing the same thing as pushing with KQs UTG at this table, and it just wouldn't be a strong enough hand for me to do that.

On the other hand, I can't see limping with that stack and those blinds.

[bigredlemon]

You really have to wonder about someone who would limp in in the CO with AQ after everyone else limped in. QK isn't going to be ahead by someone who's calling an all in here. At best you can hope for a weak ace or low pair, both of which you are behind. Against a table that's both loose and passive, they are probably very inexperienced players so your table image means almost nothing. The real question is whether you think everyone will fold.

[invisibleleadsoup]

not sure whether its a good move or not,but while the best you can hope for from a caller may be a weak ace or a low pp,it seems a little disingenious to ignore the fact that all the dead money in the pot if called by one person is one of the reasons for the move,(along with the admittedly slim fold equity)not the hope of being called by a worse hand

[Pat Southern]

With the pot already 2/3 of your stack this is an easy push. Nobody has shown strength, and although unlikely, picking up the pot uncontested would be a huge boost to your stack. The EP limpers will fold very often, so it really only comes down to the range of hands that you put MP1, MP2 and CO on. This was really one of the worst case scenarios for you (other than AA or KK) since the caller had you dominated, and even so it was still almost a +EV move. A lot of times he'll not only be calling you with a hand that you are a coinflip against (with a ton of dead money in the pot), but pot odds will also lead him to calling with hands that you perhaps dominate, such as KJ or QJ, which would be more common limping hands than AQ in my opinion.

[Double Eagle]

Well, given the action it's not unreasonable to assume if your push is called it will not be by a dominating hand (actual results notwithstanding.) You you will be a 3:2 dog at worst in a pot that's laying you better than 5:2. Even if you only take it down pre-flop 25% of the time, Going Tarzan is a very profitable play here.

[Aisthesis]

Yes, I really think you make the most important points here. These really can't be good players, all limping with the blinds at that level. I think you should have enough time (although not a whole lot) to outplay these guys. Moreover, if they're so passive, I would expect some blind steals to work when you don't have the entire field to deal with (and I wouldn't be very picky about my hand if I have a good idea of who at the table is particularly weak).

I really don't think these pot odds, etc. consideration brought up by several other posters are really so much applicable in this kind of tournament situation. Ok, so you stand to gain a lot, which may or may not "guarantee" you the money (I don't see that it does from what has been said). But in tournament situations when you commit your whole stack, you really do want to be the favorite if called, and at worst a coinflip. If you lose, your chances of the money are now 0%. I think I'd really need to assess the chances that the field will fold at better than 50% in order to make this move.

[Double Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I really think you make the most important points here. These really can't be good players, all limping with the blinds at that level. I think you should have enough time (although not a whole lot) to outplay these guys. Moreover, if they're so passive, I would expect some blind steals to work when you don't have the entire field to deal with (and I wouldn't be very picky about my hand if I have a good idea of who at the table is particularly weak).

I really don't think these pot odds, etc. consideration brought up by several other posters are really so much applicable in this kind of tournament situation. Ok, so you stand to gain a lot, which may or may not "guarantee" you the money (I don't see that it does from what has been said). But in tournament situations when you commit your whole stack, you really do want to be the favorite if called, and at worst a coinflip. If you lose, your chances of the money are now 0%. I think I'd really need to assess the chances that the field will fold at better than 50% in order to make this move.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, yet another disciple of the Church of Wait for Better Opportunities. The OP has 7BB and he has been presented with an opportunity to make a play that will be wildly profitable and IMO can not pass it up. How profitable you ask?

Well let's start with some assumptions.

1) How often will everyone fold to a push? Based on the action described I think a conservative estimate here is 25% of the time. So in those cases he picks up T1100 (4 limpers plus the blinds)

2) What are the range of hands that will call him the other 75% of the time? Again, based on the action described it doesn't seem as if a hand that calls him should be dominating him, but obviously AQ is a possibility. so let's say AQ-A9, KQ, 22-88 (we'll leave out hands like KJ/QJ to be conservative.)

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 44.9869 % [ 00.41 00.04 ] { KQs }
Hand 2: 55.0131 % [ 00.51 00.04 ] { 88-22, AQs-A9s, KQs, AQo-A9o, KQo }

Assuming we get called by a stack that covers us, the pot size will be 3900 (our 1500, the caller's 1500 and 900 dead money) and our equity in the pot is 3900*.45 = T1755, a profit of T255.

So even with what I think are extremely conservative assumptions, this move will earn a profit on average of (T1100*.25)+(T255*.75) = T466.25 - that's over a quarter of his stack! You might be good enough to pass up +EV31% situations, I assure you that most of the rest of the poker playing population is not.

[Pat Southern]

Its tough to easily outplay people with 7BBs

[Guruman]

thanks for the responses guys. The play looks better after the fact than it did in the heat of battle.

It's just too easy to second guess an aggressive move that busts you out of a tourney sometimes. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]