Shortstacked with a draw

[Quercus]

After yesterdays discussion about using an all-in checkraise late in a tournament with a strong draw.

Today, I'm in the same tournament, much earlier (39 left out of 90) and getting shortstacked (half of par). I've got a single opponent and a strong draw.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB (t880)
Hero (t1335)
UTG (t4012)
UTG+1 (t3871)
MP1 (t9507)
MP2 (t3453)
CO (t4953)
Button (t1431)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls t100, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (t250) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t100</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>

Correct? Mangled?

[RodBlizz42]

okay first of all you are not dead 1300 w/ bb at 100 you have maybe 8 orbits-we dont want to go all in on a draw to have him turn over a couple of unpaired high cards to catch brick brick for him to win with ace high-i like your raise representing a made straight-maybe he lays his hand down and buys us the pot and some time-maybe he calls and we catch our straight-both are good for us-if he makes a big re raise i am done with it- i have about 900 left after my bluff and i am prepared to go all in pre flop-an arguement could be made for an all in on your part you have 4 sevens and 4 twos also maybe 3 eights and 3 sixes if he has say ace 5 for top pair top kicker 14 outs (potenially about even money) pre flop you would go all in on an even money situation short stacked (say you get a pair of 7s and someone makes a raise with what you believe to be ace king you are going to push all in) but you have either choice-i like your raise on the flop if you go all in you have a shot or fold and wait for another spot to try to double up

[nightlyraver]

I would be more inclined to bet out rather than go for a check-raise. Villian limped first in from MP, so I'm not putting him on a big pair or a big ace. He likely has a suited connector, or off-suit broadways. Either way, this flop likely missed him completely. Note that if he constantly limps with any pocket pair, things do change.

At any rate, he did not raise so there is a strong likelyhood that he does not bet in this spot. MANY card can fall on the turn that may pair his hand. I wouldn't risk getting into a tough spot, so I'm betting here.

The check-raise also looks really suspect. What are you representing? It's more expected to bet out here if you paired up. The check-raise is almost like saying, "you really don't have anything and I caught you." If this type of play typically works against Villian, go for it. However, a thinking Villian may come over the top on a resteal. Your only saving grace is that the check-raise somewhat commits you to this pot, so Villian may fear a desperation call if he tries the resteal.

Yes, it's mangled...

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
okay first of all you are not dead 1300 w/ bb at 100 you have maybe 8 orbits-we dont want to go all in on a draw

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont buy this...Im not waiting 2, let alone 8, orbits for a hand to double up so I can be below where I'm at now. No, he's not desperate, but if he wants to make the real cash now is the time to start making moves, or packing it in.

I like this play actually, Villain will likely back off, and , if he limped a small medium PP, you will still have a few outs if he calls(giving yourself 8 outs here might be too much, 14 would be way too many)...I dont think this play is as mangled as it seems.

[Quercus]

A similar hand. $25 buyin, $2500 guaranteed tournament.

My stack is on the short side again (30% or so of par) and I'm feeling some pressure to pick up some chips. We're still a long ways from the money.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Hero (t555)</font>
BB (t1000)
UTG (t920)
<font color="#C00000">UTG+1 (t720)</font>
MP1 (t1330)
MP2 (t1830)
MP3 (t1060)
CO (t795)
Button (t2760)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t30, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t150) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t90</font>, MP2 folds, Button folds, BB folds, Hero raises all-in

UTG has been on the loose side preflop but I don't believe I've seen him at showdown yet.

Plan here was to check and see what the action looked like. I'd be happy to take a free card or have a half-pot sized bet from late position to checkraise.

The lead out bet indicates (to me) that UTG caught a piece and is testing the water. Weak ace or middle pair perhaps. Everyone folds back to me and I can either call and see a turn or move all in. I have enough chips to have some folding equity (not as much as I would if this bet came from LP) and lot of outs to double up if he calls.

Correct? Mangled? Have I just become too infatuated with the draw-hand checkraise?

EDIT: stack is about 30% of par, not 40%

[RodBlizz42]

i dont know why giving him 8 outs here would be to many because the main reason to push with an open ended straight draw is because you have 8 outs and i said 14 if villian is holding top pair say ace 5 which is not an unlikely holding-whats wrong with my assement of outs?

[nightlyraver]

Despite the fact that there are more players here, your draw is MUCH stronger than in the previous hand. This check-raise I like since it puts villian to the test AND you may even be ahead here. I'm usually playing such a strong draw aggressively.

[suited_ace]

What's the plan after raising the flop? Would you call an all-in from Villain? What if he calls, are you leading the turn?

FWIW, I don't think this is a good spot for this semi-bluff because of your chipstack size. If you're not willing to put all your chips in the middle by the end of the hand, then your raise is horrible because it leaves you in an even tougher spot than you were before.

If you were the one w/ 34BB, then I think it would be a good play, but you need to understand that this is totally different from the ATo hand.

[Quercus]

If he goes all-in, the pot size probably now dictates a call and a prayer that I've got more than just 8 outs (less if he has redraws from a small set).

If he calls, I have to hit my turn card or I'm likely done. If the CR doesn't scare him off, its hard to see the logical turn bet having any more luck.

I thought about CR all in on the flop, but while it may just be my imagination, I seem to see a higher degree of willingness from a lot of people at these limits to call all-in overbets rather than pot sized bets.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont know why giving him 8 outs here would be to many because the main reason to push with an open ended straight draw is because you have 8 outs and i said 14 if villian is holding top pair say ace 5 which is not an unlikely holding-whats wrong with my assement of outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I was thinking too remotely I guess...If villain has a set (early limper? not remote) Hero's pair possibilies are gone, plus his straight outs are discounted by the board pairing.

But I agree, 8 is fair when balancing all possibilities. More than 8 is too much though.