($60) sure, NOW i get JJ

[bluefeet]

$60 Stars Turbo

UTG: (4575 in chips)
Button: (670 in chips)
bluefeet-SB: (1770 in chips)
BB: (6485 in chips)

All post the ante 25 - blinds 100/200 [going up in less than 1 minute]

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bluefeet [J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]
UTG: calls 200
Button: folds
bluefeet: ???

Both BB & UTG had played EXTREMELY horrible - thus having all the chips [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

UTG was very loose. Taking in most flops, calling PF and post-flop with a random assortment of hands. He was lacking in open aggression (thus the constant limping).

His neighbor took on more of the true LAG type. Having pushed over a 3x of mine an orbit or two earlier. Amassing his furtune with a couple ugly suckouts (AI PF).

So...we get this gem. Shortie has passed on a couple open opportunities - in no big hurry to hang himself.

FWIW, I moved the button one, pushing into the biggie blinds here...netting a .+2 based on the range I gave them (22+,A5+,KJs+,KQ+).

What's your move?

[durron597]

jam jam jam

Edit: ok you probably want some real strategy. UTG probably has a hand that he wants to get HU against the shorty with but probably isn't that strong. And you'd love to get in as a 70% fav here even with the shorties stack size. 99 I would play more passively, TT is a really tough spot.

[pooh74]

I complete and play it passively. I'm willing to get pushed off by any overcard or any board that I think might be beat me. The problem is letting BB play and not knowing at all where you're at.

Ill play it for my stack with an undercard flop (most of them) or a set only.

I think pushing here is also ok, but its close (as you said, and if they play horribly, a call is more likely so pushing=bad)

real rough spot and is uber read-dependent.

with no reads, i push this lots. with your read, i might just complete and play some poker.

EDIT: *** just reread my reply... by "play some poker" i probably should have said "push or fold depending on the flop."

[45suited]

Bluefeet, I think I'd have to push this. Shorty isn't uber short. If he doubles up, he's not that far behind you. This is hardly a spot where you can just fold ITM. Plus, you still have some FE and of course, an excellent hand.

Another reason that I can see to push is that if it gets folded to shorty, he is to your right - you of course can expect him to push into your BB at his first opportunity. He's not short enough for you to play passively here.

I usually take a more conservative approach (you have to ITM before you can finish first) but this really is a great chance to double up if the loose UTG does decide to call. So I push, regardless of the nature of my opponents.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Bluefeet, I think I'd have to push this. Shorty isn't uber short. If he doubles up, he's not that far behind you. This is hardly a spot where you can just fold ITM. Plus, you still have some FE and of course, an excellent hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, if Hero had a little less and/or shorty a little more, then I would absolutely agree. But with the stacks the way they are, blinds going to 200/400 plus antes on the next hand, and Hero's reads on the biggins, this becomes a very borderline push.

I definitely would not argue with anyone advocating a push here, but I think there's something to be said for both lines.

[sofere]

I don't think this is all that borderline. Even with your read on BS, you still have a good amount of fold equity here, and your destroying a lot of the hands he might call with. The fact that blinds are going up soon gives me more reason to push this as you'll lose almost all fold equity when they do and would thus be playing to limp into third.

IMO...you have way too much fold equity to not push here, the extra 500 in chips is very valuable, and you're a big favorite to double up if called.

FWIW, I probably fold this if UTG pushes.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is all that borderline. Even with your read on BS, you still have a good amount of fold equity here, and your destroying a lot of the hands he might call with. The fact that blinds are going up soon gives me more reason to push this as you'll lose almost all fold equity when they do and would thus be playing to limp into third.

IMO...you have way too much fold equity to not push here, the extra 500 in chips is very valuable, and you're a big favorite to double up if called.

FWIW, I probably fold this if UTG pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno...I think this is where ICM becomes very important and where the correct play shocks your intuition. There are some stack distributions where doubling up is clearly correct and some where playing for third is clearly correct. This, in mind, leans toward the latter.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is all that borderline. Even with your read on BS, you still have a good amount of fold equity here, and your destroying a lot of the hands he might call with. The fact that blinds are going up soon gives me more reason to push this as you'll lose almost all fold equity when they do and would thus be playing to limp into third.

IMO...you have way too much fold equity to not push here, the extra 500 in chips is very valuable, and you're a big favorite to double up if called.

FWIW, I probably fold this if UTG pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno...I think this is where ICM becomes very important and where the correct play shocks your intuition. There are some stack distributions where doubling up is clearly correct and some where playing for third is clearly correct. This, in mind, leans toward the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. He has 670, not 200. It's not like he's totally wasted. Bluefeet ran a scenario that tried to mock this one, and IMO even that scenario, which was +EV, understates our EV. I shove.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno...I think this is where ICM becomes very important and where the correct play shocks your intuition. There are some stack distributions where doubling up is clearly correct and some where playing for third is clearly correct. This, in mind, leans toward the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

But we're not even talking about responding to a raise. Just an UTG limp. And the shortstack is not SO short that he is no threat to catch up with you.

So, say you call (now we're down to 1570) and fold to an over on the flop. Shorty doubles up once, he's got ~1340 chips. Our lead on him is almost gone.

By pushing, you're playing for 1st AND simultaneously playing to ITM. I'd never forgive myself if I played this hand weakly and ended up not finishing ITM.