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  #1  
Old 11-03-2005, 03:50 PM
Hellmouth Hellmouth is offline
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Location: Basement of the science building
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Default 88 playing against no overcards

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Im trying to protect my hand here but I guess I probably ended up building the pot instead.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Should have waited to raise the turn if no over card came. Now my 1BB does not protect my hand.

River: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Screwed. Villian is telling me I am beaten. Do I call this down?

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

This is a hand from two nights ago I am still thinking about.

Is my flop raise ok since there is no PF raise? Or did I build the pot allowing a villian to draw out on me.

Greg
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  #2  
Old 11-03-2005, 03:53 PM
Jaran Jaran is offline
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Default Re: 88 playing against no overcards

Raise pf. Hand plays differently after that.

-Jaran
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  #3  
Old 11-03-2005, 04:00 PM
Hellmouth Hellmouth is offline
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Default Re: 88 playing against no overcards

[ QUOTE ]
Raise pf. Hand plays differently after that.

-Jaran

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree except that with so many people behind me it seems that a PF raise is incorrect with 88. SSHE advocates raising TT and higher in early position in a tight game (3-5 players preflop). Im looking to spike a set. I miss but am lucky enough to have no overcards so I go for it

Greg
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  #4  
Old 11-03-2005, 04:06 PM
Koss Koss is offline
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 38
Default Re: 88 playing against no overcards

You're not in EP here. The game is 7 handed so treat it as if UTG and UTG+1 have already folded. Now you are in middle position and this should be a raise.

Postflop I think you played the hand fine, except I'm not sure about the crying call on the river. I don't think your hand is good anwhere near the 90% of the time you need it to be to justify this call. Unless I've seen the BB make some really oddball raises before then I don't think there's much point in paying this off.
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  #5  
Old 11-03-2005, 04:08 PM
tiltaholic tiltaholic is offline
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Default Re: 88 playing against no overcards

raise pf. even moreso because you are 7 handed.

avoid openlimping in MP (though techically you are sort of EP because the table is shorthanded, when you play shorthanded you should basically never be openlimping anyway)


if bb is a total doof i bet the river.
if he's sane, i check the river.
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  #6  
Old 11-03-2005, 04:12 PM
Greg J Greg J is offline
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Default Re: 88 playing against no overcards

3 people left to act behind you is not that many. In a loose and passive full ring game, open limping with 88 is still not usually correct (though it can be sometimes). At a seven handed game, this is pretty much never correct.

The rest of the hand is played okay IMO.
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  #7  
Old 11-03-2005, 04:12 PM
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Default Re: 88 playing against no overcards

Hi Hellmouth,

I've got to agree with Jaran that this is an easy raise pre-flop. Note that in a 7-handed game you are in middle position, not early position. As far as the flop raise, I've got mixed feelings. It won't protect your hand, because your two opponents have already put in one bet, and now they are getting better odds to call. However, it is probably a good raise for value, because...

The bet on the turn probably still does protect your hand in the sense that anyone calling with two overs is not getting odds to call. With 6 outs, you should be getting ~6.5:1 to call I think, and here you're only offering him 5.5:1.

So don't worry that he rivered you. It happens. I'm not sure if you should call the river bet or not, but I think I probably would.
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  #8  
Old 11-03-2005, 04:18 PM
TheKentock TheKentock is offline
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Posts: 13
Default Re: 88 playing against no overcards

I raise preflop as well, if I'm playing this. There is no way I'm open-limping anything from MP1. You gotta remember shorthanded to play like the first few people folded. (Actually, by my count you are in MP2, since MP3, CO, and Button are the 3 that folded.)

Anyway, given the preflop play, I think the flop raise is questionable. You are not getting anyone to fold, and there are a Ton of cards that severely hurt your hand on the turn. I think this is the perfect time to wait for a raise on the turn. If a blank hits, you get the most money in on the turn, and if a scare card hits, you can consider exiting stage right without losing too much money. (This kinda reminds me of the "Two Overpair Hands" section of SSHE. Ooh, the oncoming controversy...)

The river call is interesting. On one hand, there is not a single hand I can imagine raising here that you beat. Unless he simply misclicked, you are almost certain to lose.

On the other hand, an entire table will have seen you raise the flop, bet the turn, bet the river, and Fold to a raise on the end. This is a very noticeable move on any table, and you're going to find yourself being bluffed at a lot more after this hand. So you're going to have to be prepared to calldown a lot more if you fold here. If you are prepared to make some sizable adjustments to your game here, Fold and save the bet. But if you think the -EV of people targeting you as bluffable is going to be a problem, call down so that noone notices you.
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  #9  
Old 11-03-2005, 04:23 PM
Aviston Aviston is offline
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Default Re: 88 playing against no overcards

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (3 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Im trying to protect my hand here but I guess I probably ended up building the pot instead.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are not raising to protect your hand here. You are raising for value because you probably have the best hand. An argument could be made that it may be better to wait for the turn to raise if another blank falls as your pot equity will be much larger. That, however, is another discussion.
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  #10  
Old 11-03-2005, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: 88 playing against no overcards

I make a crying call. You are probably beat, but at least it sets a precedent that you can't be bluffed on the river. Also, it gives you some information as to how the villain plays. If he called down with 2 overs all the way to the river make a note that it will be very hard to push him out in situations like this. Also, note the c/r for future hands one way or another. You will either find out he c/r bluffs or c/r when he hits his card on the river.
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