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  #11  
Old 09-21-2005, 02:38 AM
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Default Re: AA: SSHE pg. 163

Firstly, I cap the flop just to see where I am on the turn, as someone already stated. If there is excessive action on the turn before it gets to you, I would think you can muck the hand.

Secondly, where are you being ridiculed? All I see are people giving honest replies...
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  #12  
Old 09-21-2005, 02:58 AM
benwood benwood is offline
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Default Re: AA: SSHE pg. 163

I'm not particularly worried about the odds that they are getting at this point, myself. But , like you, I would rather not cap the flop. They may cap it anyway, without my help. But whether it's capped now or not , I will still get more momey in there by encouring them to lead the turn so that I can pop them again.
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  #13  
Old 09-21-2005, 03:16 AM
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Default Re: AA: SSHE pg. 163

[ QUOTE ]
As I stated earlier, I really don't think I have a chance to fold anyone out of this hand. However, giving them incorrect immediate pot odds seems better than giving them odds to call with pretty much anything. I'm really unsure as to whether giving up a value cap on the flop is worth it in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think protecting your hand can be a consideration, but should not always be the overriding one. As Ed Miller has posted, waiting for the turn accomplishes more than just giving people incorrect odds to fold. It builds a bigger pot from players that are going to the river, and it can sometimes get someone to FOLD incorrectly b/c they think you have a monster hand like a set and will incorrectly fold one pair hands that have odds to continue.

I don't think we should be raising the turn here for several reasons. 1) Due to the heavy flop action we are quite possibly behind. By capping the flop we more clearly define our hand and it makes the turn and river easier to play. I don't really want to put two bets in on the turn if I am drawing dead. 2) You have to think what type of hands you are giving incorrect odds to. UTG does not have an inside str8 draw based on the action. So he's either ahead of you or drawing slim as it is. Maybe BB does, but taht is doubtful and I'm not going to go out of my way to give him incorrect odds on the off chance he does.

Overall, it all comes down to value. By offering someone incorrect odds to call, you either gain a fraction of the pot when they fold, or a fraction of their bet if they call. So I think obsessing about knocking out inside draw alone is pretty stupid. We're talking about fractions of a BB probably. So I think the combination of value from a flop raise if we're ahead, along with saving us bets as it makes the hand easier to play on the turn and river make this a flop raise.

For big overpair hands like KK,waiting for the turn to raise I think in general is good for a combination of reasons that reasons Ed Miller mentioned that I noted above. For hands like TT or JJ, I think waiting for the turn can be much more important as they are more vulerable to weak draws.
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  #14  
Old 09-21-2005, 04:01 AM
benwood benwood is offline
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Default Re: AA: SSHE pg. 163

Tehox, You've got a lot good info. in your post & I have studied it carefully, but I may still be misunderstanding some stuff. I'm not sure if capping the flop really defines the hand better. A player in this position who's on a draw could easily cap to try for a free card if he misses, so it seems that the other players will still be in the dark as to what you have. Suppose after your cap, a blank comes & they check to you. Are you going to bet what you think could easily be the best hand? You don't want the betting to go the same way on the turn that it went on the flop, do you? I'm not saying this to be argumentitive. I just don.t understand how capping the flop makes the turn play easier. Help! Thanks.
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  #15  
Old 09-21-2005, 04:03 AM
benwood benwood is offline
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Default Re: AA: SSHE pg. 163

I meant to say worst hand, not the best. Correction.
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  #16  
Old 09-21-2005, 08:25 AM
Aviston Aviston is offline
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Default Re: AA: SSHE pg. 163

[ QUOTE ]
Secondly, where are you being ridiculed? All I see are people giving honest replies...

[/ QUOTE ]
It was merely a joke considering for the most part, both of my posted plays were thought to be incorrect by the majority. Everyone's replies were much appreciated.
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  #17  
Old 09-21-2005, 09:41 AM
winky51 winky51 is offline
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Default Re: AA: SSHE pg. 163

What he says. That seems the correct play. CAP the flop, bet the turn, of you get raised there then consider your options. KK aint laying down and I am pretty sure one of them has that. The only other hand that 3 better on the flop might have is a set.
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  #18  
Old 09-21-2005, 10:22 AM
crunchy1 crunchy1 is offline
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Default Re: AA: SSHE pg. 163

[ QUOTE ]
Should I cap this for value here? Or is this much like the KK hand on page 163 of SSHE? By capping, I'll be giving BB a little over 10:1 on his call and UTG 15:1. If, however, I wait until the turn to raise (assuming UTG+2 bets the turn) I would cut down those odds to around 8:1.

[/ QUOTE ]
In a 6-player pot at 2/4 I would spend more time trying to get the most value from my hand vs. worrying about trying to protect it. You also need to pay attention to the action and be aware of when to release you hand (when top-pair isn't good anymore).
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  #19  
Old 09-21-2005, 10:36 AM
House-Lion House-Lion is offline
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Default Re: AA: SSHE pg. 163

doesn't anyone comment a possible flush-draw here that very well could be a raiser or a fl-dr with a pair or some other random holding where that player think this is worth a raise?

what happend on turn?

I like the idea of getting the possibility to raise on turn again because you sometimes will fold out someone with a pair drawing to 2 pair or that 2 out-chaser.
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  #20  
Old 09-21-2005, 11:05 AM
Derek in NYC Derek in NYC is offline
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Default Re: AA: SSHE pg. 163

I would cap it here, but only partially "for value" since there's a reasonable chance you're crushed at this point. (The other possibility is that somebody is jamming the nut flush draw, or draw and a pair, in this multiway pot).

One of the main reasons I want to cap here is to make 4th street easier to play. If a guy was going nuts on the flop with a draw, he will be less likely to raise into my cap with the same draw on 4th street.

So, if I cap the flop (and thus signal overpair), but on a non-heart 4th street UTG bets out into my flop cap and UTG+1 still raises, I can safely fold. If it is checked to me, I bet for value (although a checkraise is problematic).

If a heart falls, the hand is harder to play, and I'd be inclined to fold against two bets cold, since I dont have any redraws. OTOH, if a heart falls that doesnt pair the board, there's a pretty good chance it won't be raised, even by somebody holding a set
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